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Are We Free or Determind

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posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:01 PM
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An intersting discussion occured in my class today about whether human kind actually has free will. I know this sounds wierd but here are the opions, that we do have free will being able to choose what we want to do when we want to do it, or that everything is already been determind for us , by god, aliens, or whomever. Now the reason that I post this in the religion forums is that, throught our debate we found that religion had a lot to do with the way people were thinking. Basically we used these two religions as opposites (for the sake of this argument) Hinduism believes in free will, and Calvinits believe that God has already determind who will do what, and you are only here to find out what you are supposed to do. I thought this might be wierd to put here but hopefully there will be some good opions here




posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:03 PM
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We're determined to be free


Or, conversely, free will is a tool of opression, as it leads to responsbility ultimately leaving us to be free NOT to act



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:11 PM
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But some of the supporters of determind said that everything that has a cause has an effect, being true they said means that no matter what we do there will be some form of reaction so that we are living in a world that we are sort of just riding on ( I don't really understand what they mean't)



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by The_Final
But some of the supporters of determind said that everything that has a cause has an effect, being true they said means that no matter what we do there will be some form of reaction so that we are living in a world that we are sort of just riding on ( I don't really understand what they mean't)


There is, of course, causal determinism, but there does seem to be a way to perhaps escape it.

Try to get yourself in the frame of mind so that you ACT as opposed to REACT.
There is a v ery big difference, and you are capable of doing such.
I do think many people fall prey to reaction, which is causal determinism,, but it is not beyond us to ACT independantly of circumanstance rather than react to our situation, if you see what I mean.

edit: spelling

[edit on 14-12-2004 by parrhesia]

[edit on 14-12-2004 by parrhesia]



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:19 PM
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Well we have free will. Like I can choose to type A or B. See right there i chose to type them both. Now thats free will right there. I had two choices and I chose a 3rd.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56
Well we have free will. Like I can choose to type A or B. See right there i chose to type them both. Now thats free will right there. I had two choices and I chose a 3rd.


Good idea
The only problem is sometimes there is not always a third choice.

Yeah I got what your saying parrhesia thanks.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by The_Final

Good idea
The only problem is sometimes there is not always a third choice.

Yeah I got what your saying parrhesia thanks.


There can be a third choice, if only we stop to think about our potential actions.
In so many cases it is not a sitation where it is A or B, but we may see it as such.
You've just got to STOP; don't react, but think.
There is something else.
And rememeber; doing nothing is still an reaction or action depending on your state of mind and your intentions.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by parrhesia
And rememeber; doing nothing is still an reaction or action depending on your state of mind and your intentions.


I was once told that there is no such thing as action or reaction since they are not solid ideas, its long and should be shoved in the science theard but it has something to do with how you are viewing something-in Special Realitivty.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by The_Final

I was once told that there is no such thing as action or reaction since they are not solid ideas, its long and should be shoved in the science theard but it has something to do with how you are viewing something-in Special Realitivty.


Could you clarify that, please?



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:53 PM
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Interesting question. I answered this in another forum, so, I'll be lazy and just copy it from there.

www.ignorancedenied.com...

Well, what is free will defined as? If it is the abscence of nessicated precedents in ones actions, then no, it cannot possibly exist; or, if it simply the act of an agent without an external element acting upon the agent.

For example:

I, for example, have been in a qaundry over the creation of the universe vernacular to christian tounge; did God create the world out of free will --a categorical imperative on non-tuism [driven neither by egoism, or altruism]--, or was he acting up an external agent; a nessecitated precedent ? Maybe this will make for good articulation.

Determinism is what one should aim for: every event or state of affairs is determined by a preceding one. There have been many great philosophers that have debated this for centuries; it would be wise to service Google, you will find ample information.

Compatibilism is what I aim for, insofar as my readings warrant. Compatibilism molds together "free will" and "determinism": Every state of affairs is determinied by a previous state of affairs, but one has the ability to chose wether or not to act upon the cause, and has the free will to make an alternative volition.

For example:

I saw this thread and had the choice to partake in the discussion. During this lapse, I could have made the choice wether or to act upon the nessicated cause, or not to act upon the nessicated cause.

Locke, Hume, Kant, and Hobbes are all that one should be aware of.

Deep



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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Sure. I thought I might get that. Ok here's how he explained it to me so I don't know if it is 100% true but here goes: If I were to flip a light switch on the light that was attached to the switch would go on. But if a person going at the speed of light would first see the light go on, and then me flipping the switch. So his point was that at first the action was the flip of the switch and the reaction was th light turning on. But when an oberserver saw it happening (when he or she was traveling at the speed of light) the light was the action and me flipping the switch was the reaction, see I don't really know how that works, but it is a good example anways. Does this help?

EDIT: I am so sorry for forgetting the compatablism, that is what I have come to believe too. This happened in my Philosophy class so we just finished up the men you have mentioned, this is why this disscusion began.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by The_Final]

[edit on 14-12-2004 by The_Final]



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 07:37 PM
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So, If I told you that I had just come back from the future.. say from 10 years into the future. There I saw you and you were married to a girl called Jane and had 3 kids and lived in Tasmania Australia.

You say now. 'No Way. That Aint gonna happen. I live in Texas and I hate Australia and hate planes and never fly'.

Knowing the future, do you now have free will? Or is your path set? Can you change your path? Evey action (even if you believe it is free and will take you away from tasmania to get married to Jane and having 3 kids) will bring you that one step closer!

Scary hey?



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by The_Final
Sure. I thought I might get that. Ok here's how he explained it to me so I don't know if it is 100% true but here goes: If I were to flip a light switch on the light that was attached to the switch would go on. But if a person going at the speed of light would first see the light go on, and then me flipping the switch. So his point was that at first the action was the flip of the switch and the reaction was th light turning on. But when an oberserver saw it happening (when he or she was traveling at the speed of light) the light was the action and me flipping the switch was the reaction, see I don't really know how that works, but it is a good example anways. Does this help?

EDIT: I am so sorry for forgetting the compatablism, that is what I have come to believe too. This happened in my Philosophy class so we just finished up the men you have mentioned, this is why this disscusion began.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by The_Final]

[edit on 14-12-2004 by The_Final]


Wait so your saying that just because someone saw you were going to do it its not free will? If I saw someone was about to throw a snowball at someone befor they do and say or not say DUCK to the guy then its not free will. That doesnt make sence to me.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by parrhesia

Originally posted by The_Final

Good idea
The only problem is sometimes there is not always a third choice.

Yeah I got what your saying parrhesia thanks.


There can be a third choice, if only we stop to think about our potential actions.
In so many cases it is not a sitation where it is A or B, but we may see it as such.
You've just got to STOP; don't react, but think.
There is something else.
And rememeber; doing nothing is still an reaction or action depending on your state of mind and your intentions.


Theres an episode of South Park that relates to this. Bare with me. In the episode Satin is now dating a new guy named Chris. Then Saddam Hussein comes back. Saddam wants to do satin again and then satin gives in to his temptations and sleeps with him. Chris is forgiving but Satin wants him to kick saddams ass or something. Later Satin is trying to decide weather he wants to be with chris or saddam. He tells his problem to a little girl and she sais to ask God for help. So Satin goes to heaven and tells God his problem. God sais Jesus what happend to you. Youve become such a p*ssy, for thousands of years youve just been going from one boyfriend to another and you havent evan considered the option of dating no one. So Satin goes back and tells them both to stop fighting over him and them punishes saddam by sending him to heaven and having to make plays about how alcohol destroys families with mormans. So you see while it doesnt look like theres a 3rd choice there is one.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 07:52 PM
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kurt vonnegut has written some great works on the subject (time quake)

the connection between free will, determination and religion may be that the idea of determination removes responsibility for your life or actions much in the same way religion provides "the devil made me do it"



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:02 PM
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Then there is Newton's Third Law which states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

My own view is that inaction or non-reaction is as much an action, as reaction. I believe that it is impossible to isolate oneself from a situation to the point where you would just want to remain mum.

I also feel that it is more important to take a stance and justify oneself, rather than to just sit on the fence, be non-commital and see what everyone else is doing.

[edit on 14/12/04 by aSEEKER]

BTW, there are really very few people that act purely out of alturism.

[edit on 14/12/04 by aSEEKER]



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by aSEEKER
Then there is Newton's Third Law which states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

My own view is that inaction or non-reaction is as much an action, as reaction. I believe that it is impossible to isolate oneself from a situation to the point where you would just want to remain mum.

I also feel that it is more important to take a stance and justify oneself, rather than to just sit on the fence, be non-commital and see what everyone else is doing.

[edit on 14/12/04 by aSEEKER]


Nope, that theory will not work.

A man holds up a petrol station with a gun. A bystander can:
a) Do nothing
b) Make chicken sounds and jump up and down to distract the man with the gun
c) Try to tackle the man to the ground.
d) ...

Because each action is different, how can we judge what the equal and opposite reaction will be.

If the Man does option A, he may still get shot by the man.
If he does option B, he may still get shot by the man.
If he does option C, he may still get shot by the man.

The reality is, noone knows what the outcome will be. The future is unkown but we have some ideas of the consequences of our actions or inactions.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:24 PM
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In Christianity and the God of the Hebrews (old testament) when God enables the Hebrews free from Egypt, the Bible quotes that God hardens Pharoahs heart. What is the Bible saying that God has control of our emotions? This may be the case, but it seems that he can still control how we feel and think. If he has the ability to do this and still does it, then free will is somthing that can be controlled by God - which is not free will at all unless you can control all of your emotions.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069
In Christianity and the God of the Hebrews (old testament) when God enables the Hebrews free from Egypt, the Bible quotes that God hardens Pharoahs heart. What is the Bible saying that God has control of our emotions? This may be the case, but it seems that he can still control how we feel and think. If he has the ability to do this and still does it, then free will is somthing that can be controlled by God - which is not free will at all unless you can control all of your emotions.


How did God harden his heart? If you read the story it was through a set of circumstances. i.e. plagues.

If I wanted to get with a girl and 'win her heart', what would I do? Buy her chocolates, flowers, write romantic poetry, take her out for dinner.. whatever. Does she have free will to stop falling in love with me? She does, but I am making it harder for her to 'not to' thus manipulating the environment. So in this situation, you could say, 'Shmick25 softened her heart'

Understand?



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:39 PM
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Free will is the ability to think, act, react, choose, deny as one sees fit. Any mind controlling intervention therefore denies free will. We do not have free will in the God given sense, where, by his desire he removes the ability of another to abide by anything other than what he wants them to abide by. He invoked his will over others many times. Also, if we are to believe in revelaton, then it has already been determined that evil will still be rampant during that time, therefore, if free will existed there would be no need to allow mankind to cary on for thousands of years so that his laws would be adhered to, but then proclaim thousands of years in advance, he will destroy us for choosing the wrong path.



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