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Pope Francis I: Free Speech Limit: respect to beliefs & dignity, no tolerance to verbal harrassment

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posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 10:49 AM
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The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light,
Dear Readers,

Today, his Holyness the Pope Francis I during his visitation to Phillipines, a country that has a very ample majority of Christians of the Roman Catholic rite but also a significant minority of Muslims, has pointed directly to an aspect that no body else wants to even mention around the terrorist attack in Paris and that is revealing how much of truth exist on what the media is reporting and how much of misinformation and even hypocrisy.

www.nbcnews.com...

www.wsj.com...

abcnews.go.com...


The Holy father , has declared that there has been abuse of the freedom speech when anybody feels that it has all the right to insult the religious beliefs of others, let me repeat this again, it is not just to disagree, it is to display insulting propaganda against the religion or any other cultural aspect that is in the core of the identity of any human group.

Of course, an aberration only can engender another aberration, and of course the final outcome was a crime that is also a violation of any human right, in which nobody wants to assume responsibilities. In other words, this has been a clear case of verbal violence tolerated by the media along months and months that was followed by madness.


I think these words of the Pope arrive in a probably the most confuse moment in the relationships between the Muslim world and the western one, and they certainly bring a so important element of discussion, since the most grave event that can damage any democratic system is precisely when ethics runs in one direction that is not precisely the same of the behavior tolerated by a wrong interpretation of the Law, but also since the tragic event of Charlie Hebdo is now pushing the world with terrible momentum to a collision in between civilizations that were founded ironically both in the belief on one only and same God.

The Pope is inviting to us to reflect that something really important has been ignored by the media in their show around it, that there was in the best of the cases at least a terrible lack of prudence by the Charlie Hebdo editors board, if not a complete no sense of what must be ethics in the kind of "journalism" they were carrying out, and definitively this was a clear provocation that Alqaeda used very well to make with this attack also propaganda for their own terrorist activities along the Islamic world.

As a matter of fact it is not difficult to find reading all what Charlie Hebdo had published along 2014, the incredible huge responsibility of the victims in their own tragedy, this has been ignored and even reduced to almost nothing, portraying them as martyrs of a freedom speech that in essence they even didn't represent fairly or discredit at all with the so low quality standards they were following. It is quite absurd but by checking the kind of journalism they were doing it is really difficult to don't arrive to the conclusion that mediocrity is precisely what best define their work.

I think the Pope comments are wise, since whoever dig enough in the antecedents of this crime soon or later will find that we are not talking , in spite of all the cruelty and criminality that is involved in this terrorist attack, of something that occurred to people that were really absolutely innocent.

These journalists were doing something that is clearly wrong, that in a society that is really under rule of law can be legally prosecuted and judged in courts, as abusive , but happen that now they are Heroes for the simple reason that they have paid a so high prize for their own actions. These journalists with such mockery displayed as part of a clear virulent anti-Islamic campaign of provocation are also guilty in some sense to have brought to France one of its most sad pages of History.

We have seen along more than a week the intensive campaign displayed in the streets and covered by the media around the terrible massacre in the Charlie Hebdo offices at Paris, perhaps many are genuinely compelled to join it in protest against the violence, but the question is what kind of violence are we protesting against to? because verbal xenophobic attacks represent also violence, so it is difficult to don't think that all these acts can be easily manipulated by interests that want to continue supporting the propaganda machinery that has an enormous weight of responsibility in the outcome we are seeing.

During the days that have passed something really crucial to understand the dimension of what happened in Paris has been systematically ignored by almost all the western media, like if a political plot was here running so well here, and it is that Charlie Hebdo was involved openly in one of the most dirty and aggressive campaigns against the Islamic values and beliefs ever launched by any western media, moreover, by any media against any Religion around the world in History.


I think the attitude of H.H Pope Francis I to talk in a so open and direct way about this terrible event denouncing this plot of verbal terrorism is really courageous and reveals a so high understanding of what must be Ethics ruling the use of communications media.


The thread is open to whom ever feels compelled to give an opinion or comments.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 10:53 AM
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edit on 15-1-2015 by MentorsRiddle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 10:59 AM
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Those are wise words.



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 11:01 AM
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Charlie Hebdo wasn't only satrical against the Islamic religion, from what I've heard, it also made fun of Christianity and Judaism. France also voted for the recognition of the Palestinian state about a month ago.

Why isn't Israel/Jews mentionned on MSM? They got poked around too by CH and France usually sides with Israel politically...coincidence?


In other words, this has been a clear case of verbal violence tolerated by the media along months and months that was followed by madness.


Indeed. Martyrs of free speach or just part of the agenda?



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 11:28 AM
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See here is my problem, i find the things they get up and speak
about in the news papers and on television to be offensive as well,
i find religion to be an affront to personal responsibility.

I believe that religious speech especially involving hate of any kind
and or the disrespect of others choices to be and or believe something
should be banned as well. No more popes opinion on birth control
or homosexuality, no more Islams opinion on my choice of food or
weather or not to build a snow man.

If we live in the world these people want it would be disastrous period.

I am tired of all the religious special pleading, it is getting really old to be
told we must listen to them but we cannot speak out against them.



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: The angel of light

I wonder what all the little homeless children that have been locked up beside adult offenders, simply to keep them of the streets, while said Pope visits would have to say regarding freedom in general never mind free speech?

Seems there is no limit to hypocrisy even if there is a limit to free speech.


www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 15-1-2015 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 11:30 AM
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Charlie Hebdo is now pushing the world with terrible momentum to a collision in between civilizations that were founded ironically both in the belief on one only and same God.



Though I am sure his highness the Pope wants to be in charge of a unified one world religion under his papacy, we do not worship the same god.

carm.org...


No, the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are not the same. First of all, the God of Christianity is a Trinity where the God of Islam is not. The Trinity is the monotheistic teaching that God exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Islam, this is blatantly denied. "And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa Ibn Maryam! Did you say to men, "Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah?" He will say: "Glory to you! Never could I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, you would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in yours. For you know in full all that is hidden," (Quran 5:116). "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist--it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs," (Quran 4:171) Furthermore, in Christianity the doctrine of the Trinity allows for the incarnation of the Word. John 1:1, 14 says that the Word which was God was with God and became flesh and dwelt among us and was crucified (Matt. 26:2; 27:38). This is denied in Islam, which says that Jesus is only a prophet and was not crucified. [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet," (Quran 19:30). "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain," (Quran 4:157). So, the God of Islam and the God of Christianity are not the same.


www.apologeticsindex.org...

The god of Islam, Allah, is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Allah is presented in the Koran as an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary (Sura 5:40Off-site Link). Allah is unknowable whereas the God of the Bible is knowable (2 Timothy 1:12Off-site Link). Allah is impersonal, unlike the personal God the Scriptures reveal (1 Peter 5:6-7). Allah is unitarian (Sura 4:48Off-site Link) whereas the God of the Bible is trinitarian (2 Corinthians 13:14Off-site Link). Here is what the Koran says about the God of the Bible (Sura 4:171Off-site Link): “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

Allah is capricious (Sura 2:284Off-site Link), whereas the true God is trustworthy. And Allah is never anywhere presented as a god of love — which is the essence of the nature of the true God (1 John 4:7-16Off-site Link).

Jesus — The Koran denies point blank that Jesus was the Son of God (Sura 112:2-3Off-site Link). It also denies His atoning sacrifice by claiming that he never died (Sura 4:157Off-site Link). A substitute died for Him on the Cross. Jesus was translated to Heaven, like Enoch, where He will remain until He returns to kill all pigs, destroy all crosses, and convert the world to Islam. Jesus will marry, reign for 40 years and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina.8 Jesus is characterized in the Koran as nothing more than “an apostle of Allah” (Sura 4:171Off-site Link).



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:03 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake

Well andy06shake, we need to understand that we can't live for ever in the past, for good or for bad, so I think it is time to turn the page with respect to accusations that certainly were sad but refer to times before Francis I was elected Pope of the Catholic Church.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

Dear infolurker,

I don't know if you are aware of that , but practically all and each one of the crucial theological differences you have pointed exist in between Christianism and Islam can be found also among Christianism and Jewish religion, and believe me it is quite difficult to conciliate them.

The Jewish even on our days still deny the existence of at least two persons of the Holy Trinity and also that God ever has had any son at all, also they even don't give to Jesus the dignity of Prophet that at least the Islam grants to him.

Now, there are dozens of parts of the Koran in which God is introduced as the Clement , the Merciful , so it is quite exaggerated to say that he was never associated with love, since mercy is nothing else than charity, and that is the most elevated kind of love can exist, according with the Bible itself.

As a matter of fact, the differences in between Jewish religion and Islam with respect to the way God is understood, as at only one Divine being creator of the universe are less big than the ones Christianism shows to have with the dogma of the Trinity, in which there is possibly only one religious precedent along History in the way Induism explains the creation of the world.

I was clear in the opening post, this is not mere disagreement in theological aspects, but the idea that a faith can do proselytism based on terrible insulting attacks to others beliefs, instead to show that it is based on virtues that enhance in the human spirit to take validity as a creed, as spiritual discipline. I am pretty sure that Jesus would not support at all verbal or physical violence against the God of Muhammad, because they are essentially the same one, coming from the tradition of all the ancient prophets of Israel. Similarly notice that Muhammad in his life span as a Prophet only fought against the pagan people of Arabia, against the idolatry followers , never against the Hebrews or the Christians of his times.

Now, when we say that essentially God is the same in Talmud, Torah, New Testament and Koran is because all those scriptures refer to the God of Abraham, that is the father of the faith, but also the common ancestor of all Semitic people, including Jews, Arabs and Palestinians.

Thanks for your interesting reply,

The Angel of Lightness


edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)




In the Name of God The Clement, The Merciful

Those who choose God, His Messenger and their believers as allies, are on the Party of God and thereforethe winners
(Kuran 5, Verse 56)

Say: ‘O My servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins: For He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Kuran, Sura An-Nisaa’ 4:48)

He teaches man to be good, to do the right and keep away from the wrong. Because He is so Good and Loving, He recommends and accepts only the good right things. The door of His mercy is always open to any who sincerely seek His support and protection, i.e. Kuran, Sura Al-Baqarah 2:186, Qaf 50:16.


edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:15 PM
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No beliefs deserve respect, especially religious ones. This taboo is dangerous and actually allows the proliferation of extremist beliefs.

I do not respect the beliefs of nazis, pedophiles or racists, why must I respect religious beliefs over other beliefs? All beliefs deserve scrutiny and criticism and ridicule



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:22 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

This happened pretty much today, not in the past! Probably has been happening for sometime during the run up to said Popes visit.

The hypocrisy of the situation is self evident. How can the Pope talk of limits to freedom of speech while a significant percentage of homeless children languish in gaol, next to adult offenders no less, on his behalf and expect to be taken seriously?

Granted he did not personally put them there but there must have been some kind of forehand knowledge of the situation.

edit on 15-1-2015 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr

Dear woodwardjnr,

I think to put Religion and Politics in the same basket has never been a fortunate idea, as a matter of fact they correspond to two so much different spheres of knowledge, so I don't know how the methods of the Politics can be translated to the Religion, that does not look to be a good match at all.

My impression is that your comment is more directed against fundamentalisms, in other words against sectarianisms and fanaticisms of any kind, that may be a valid argument to defend, but definitively to try to sit down together Hitler,
Stalin and Jesus Christ at the same table is a no sense at all.

Now, the use of media to denounce fundamentalisms can't be based on to discredit religions, because many religious people around the world are into that because they find their beliefs as a source of compassion, tolerance, self discipline, honesty, family values, good ethical principles, respect to others, etc.

I don't think honestly it is easy to define universal ethical values if religion is suppressed at all of the life of any civilization, who ever has tried to do that in the past has brought only evil regimes to the world that in general have violated any possible human right: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Maximilien Robespierre, Napoleon Bonaparte, Mao tse tung, etc.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake

There is going to be pedophilia in the world as long as pornography exist, since it is on the abuse of the free use of media to trade with disgusting materials that promote immorality that corrupt the mind of milliions, not only of priests, that is the origin of that and many other aberrations we are seeing in the world.

One thing is interesting, in almost every case of pedophilia denounced in the past against members of the church, as well as against protestant ministers and rabbis , pornography has been found circulating through the internet toward the personal computers of the people accused of those crimes.

This same pattern has been seen with sexual offenders of many diverse professional backgrounds, not only religious professionals, but executives of big corporations, physical trainers, teachers, sport couches , physicians etc. , that pass their time surfing the web.

I don't found fair and effective to stop criminality to harass religions for priests, rabbis, or ministers that instead to be praying or doing some healthy with their free time are checking pornography of the worst kind.

If you want to hunt responsible people of those aberrations perhaps a successful strategy is to start to prosecute the mafias that trade with those materials every day in the world using the highway of the internet supported in the free of information to cover their activities.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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I believe everybody has the right to call anybody any name they want.

The over-sensitive people are the ones with the problem.




posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 01:45 PM
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It is the religious moderates that have created an environment that has allowed extremist beliefs to propagate. They argue over misinterpretation, but generally believe in the same ideas. They are the ones who have created the environment that all beliefs must be respected. Which is nonsense
reply to: The angel of light


edit on 15-1-2015 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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The Pope is right. I'll get blasted for this, but in my opinion:

1. The journalists at Charlie Hebdo knew that France has a sizeable Islamic population

2. Said population doesn't get along well with others

3. Depictions of the prophet Mohammed are forbidden by the Muslim religion

4. Ticked off Muslims aren't going to write a sharply worded letter to the Charlie Hebdo editor or politely picket outside their offices. The response is going to be ugly and violent.

While the Charlie Hebdo journalists were expressing their right to free speech as journalists must be free to do, they weren't exactly using their best common sense to not poke a beehive with a sharp stick.

When you provoke another person, whether about their mother or their religion, you're risking a beatdown. Period.

edit on 1/15/2015 by Cheddarhead because: rephrased for clarity

edit on 1/15/2015 by Cheddarhead because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr

I think it is interesting that you ask who are in behind these terrible aberrations that turn what supposedly must be a virtue in a terrible vice, but I don't think the evil comes here from the moderates in religious aspects.

I instead perceive that this is coming from the most radical of the fundamentalist sectors of each creed, not only from the Islamists , but also from sectarian groups that claim to be the only truly Christians on the world, as well as from the most extremists of the ones believe to be the only Orthodox jews.

I am sure that if Mitchel of Nostradamus who prevented France since the XVI century, of these terrible events to come ( some of his quatrains talk about attacks on his fatherland carried out by a terrible evil force that he associated with the Third Anti-Christ) would be here again he should be attacked as sorcerer or false Prophet by all the fanatics that exist right now in the western world. This is in my opinion the byproduct of the sum of all fundamentalisms that are gradually taking control of the world since even before September 11th 2001.

Check for instance what the most closed narrow minders of the fundamentalist so called "Christianism" here in America, are saying now of the Pope, it is funny, but they are attacking him with the same sort of harassment rhetoric I have received along 8 years here from them with their incredibly biased and fragmentary interpretation of the scriptures. They are some of the ones that are promoting religious hatred in the world, but claim to be the truly Christians:

arisesandiego.com...

This people are the classic example of who throw the stone, but likes to hide the hand to don't be catched in the act, they are no going to be happy until they see an Armageddon firing the world boosted by their sectarianism, and in that insane mentality possibly they are going to say later that they were just helping the scriptures to be fulfilled.

Thanks for your comment,

The Angel of Lightness


edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 02:40 PM
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originally posted by: The angel of light
The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light,
Dear Readers,




You lost me there unfortunately....line one.



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: blupblup

Holy Apparition Dear blupblup!!

I don't know what kind of Religious ethics knowledge you got by trying to read the Gospel in the darkness of the Batecave, but I think the first Lines of St John are pretty clear on to give you Light of what my standard introduction means:


St John 1, 3He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be 4through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it... The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.


Holy Bat Logic!,

The Angel of Lightness

edit on 1/15/2015 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 03:56 PM
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There is (almost) no softer and less threatening form of criticism or perspective than humor. Those who get so deeply offended because of a joke -whether it is accurate/on point or not- have yet to acquire Basic Emotional Intelligence Scale Level 0.5 (which I just made up but I suspect it being around the level of a 3-year-old
). Those who prefer to not disagree and debate in a civilised way but choose to brutally murder the people who made that joke have zero sense of proportionality and are the real enemies of everything we value. We should not hold to their ridiculous and insane standards in any way- they lack all reason and humanity and represent a dark backwardness that shouldn't be catered to to any thinkable extent.

We should not bow to the tyranny of hurt feelings. If something offended you, or a joke was uncalled for, you can debate and discuss that in plenty of ways without resorting to lethal violence.

Humor and jokes break taboos and might even put the importance of an individual's belief in relation to others into a healthier perspective, meaning that the religious person might learn to not be offended all the time and that at the same time, the rest of society thereby gets breathing space and the opportunity to openly and honestly discuss (not just mock!) religion and its effects on life.

I just wanted to write a sentence on dogmas but I guess that'd be somewhat ironic as dogmas are quite a, well, catholic thing. Humanity progresses however by breaking taboos and making things discussable without shame or fear of (violent) repercussion and so on.

Do we really want to obey to living anachronisms because if we don't, people may die? That's like saying we shouldn't tell a toddler no because it might mean that the kid starts crying.
edit on 15-1-2015 by Pitou because: (no reason given)



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