It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Jeremiah 36 Proof of False Books?

page: 1
1
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:03 PM
link   
I find this chapter to be very interesting because to me it tells that barauc the scribe was caught fasley dictating the word givin to him by jeremiah. I think that when the lord heard the words changed the first time he decided to acend upon the king and cause him to burn the falsely transcribbed scrolls.I think this was done to get a second look at the scribe in action taking the words from Jeremiah and adding to them.

To me this seems pretty clear now but i am betting there may be other angles i overlooked. I find the names most interesting of all. It is if the scribe was representing himself to be one type of person but was actually there to work against those he had invaded.

I am also interested to know if these scrolls perhaps could be found at the end of the bible?

1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.

3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

5 And Jeremiah commanded Baruch, saying, I am shut up; I cannot go into the house of the Lord:

6 Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the Lord in the ears of the people in the Lord's house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.

7 It may be they will present their supplication before the Lord, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the Lord hath pronounced against this people.

8 And Baruch the son of Neriah did according to all that Jeremiah the prophet commanded him, reading in the book the words of the Lord in the Lord's house.

9 And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem.

10 Then read Baruch in the book the words of Jeremiah in the house of the Lord, in the chamber of Gemariah the son of Shaphan the scribe, in the higher court, at the entry of the new gate of the Lord's house, in the ears of all the people.

11 When Michaiah the son of Gemariah, the son of Shaphan, had heard out of the book all the words of the Lord,

12 Then he went down into the king's house, into the scribe's chamber: and, lo, all the princes sat there, even Elishama the scribe, and Delaiah the son of Shemaiah, and Elnathan the son of Achbor, and Gemariah the son of Shaphan, and Zedekiah the son of Hananiah, and all the princes.

13 Then Michaiah declared unto them all the words that he had heard, when Baruch read the book in the ears of the people.

14 Therefore all the princes sent Jehudi the son of Nethaniah, the son of Shelemiah, the son of Cushi, unto Baruch, saying, Take in thine hand the roll wherein thou hast read in the ears of the people, and come. So Baruch the son of Neriah took the roll in his hand, and came unto them.

15 And they said unto him, Sit down now, and read it in our ears. So Baruch read it in their ears.

16 Now it came to pass, when they had heard all the words, they were afraid both one and other, and said unto Baruch, We will surely tell the king of all these words.

17 And they asked Baruch, saying, Tell us now, How didst thou write all these words at his mouth?

18 Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words unto me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book.

19 Then said the princes unto Baruch, Go, hide thee, thou and Jeremiah; and let no man know where ye be.

20 And they went in to the king into the court, but they laid up the roll in the chamber of Elishama the scribe, and told all the words in the ears of the king.

21 So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe's chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king.

22 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.

23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

24 Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.

25 Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.

26 But the king commanded Jerahmeel the son of Hammelech, and Seraiah the son of Azriel, and Shelemiah the son of Abdeel, to take Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet: but the Lord hid them.

27 Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,

28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

29 And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the Lord; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast?

30 Therefore thus saith the Lord of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.

31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.

32 Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words.




posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:14 PM
link   
You are misreading the situation.
The first scroll contained the message which the Lord had told Jeremiah to send to the king.
But this was a message which the king did not want to hear, so he tried to destroy it.
Then Baruch wrote out the same words all over again.
There is no reason why this second copy should not be part of the chapters of Jeremiah which we've already got.

(The "additions" did not come from Baruch but from Jeremiah; they will have been further messages from the Lord)


edit on 14-1-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:29 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

you assume that it is found in jeremiah. I have always understood it the way you are now but the point of clairity comes in the last verse where it is said that he wrote what was on the first scroll and added more words. That is a clear sign of deception. The word of the lord needs no additions from a scribe. This tells of the lord uncovering decption. The first time the scroll was read is where the lord first learned that the scribe had an agenda of his own and to be sure he made him repete the process under the guise of an angry king burning the word. I think the scroll is the book of revelations.

Right or wrong i have been urged spiritually to pass this on and i have.

edit on 14-1-2015 by deadeyedick because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: deadeyedick
in the last verse where it is said that he wrote what was on the first scroll and added more words. That is a clear sign of deception. The word of the lord needs no additions from a scribe.

The scribe wasn't adding anything. The Lord himself was adding new messages as time went on.
Look at the various date indications at the beginning of the chapters. They show new messages from the Lord, one after another, through the space of at least three different reigns.
You miss the point that the new scroll, including the new material, was written at the dictation of Jeremiah and therefore from the Lord
You are also missing the point that the king was hostile to BOTH Jeremiah and Baruch and wanted to arrest both of them; because he was hostile to the one message which they were both transmitting from the Lord.
Read again vv30-31. The Lord is criticising the king, nobody else.

Understanding what is happening here is a simple matter of reading what the words say.


edit on 14-1-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:42 PM
link   
I think the parable of the weeds is a good indication of false books and prophets being contained within the bible. Jesus said that the enemy planted weeds among the wheat, just as Baruch added to the words of Jeremiah.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:43 PM
link   
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Baruch did not add to the words of Jeremiah.
Jeremiah himself added to the previous words of Jeremiah.


edit on 14-1-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:52 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI


Jeremiah 36
32 Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words.


Jeremiah dictated what Baruch was to write, and he told him to write exactly what was on the scroll that was burned previously, but words were added to what Jeremiah told him to write.

"Besides unto them" words were added, meaning the words that Jeremiah spoke were added to.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:52 PM
link   
Not sure if this vid by Chuck Smith will help .There is a question that arises from the book not appearing in a chronological order . a reply to: deadeyedick



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 01:58 PM
link   
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
It does not say that words were added to what Jeremiah dictated. Just to what he had dictated the first time round.
Note the fact that they were "many SIMILAR words". In other words, not a different message, but a continuation of the old one.
Note also that this final verse contains no criticism whatever of the "additional words". The point of the verse is "the king wanted to suppress the word of God but could not, because the Lord is capable of repeating what he said and adding more on the same lines".

You are trying to read into the situation something that is not there.


edit on 14-1-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 02:13 PM
link   
Yes, Jeremiah sent the king a message he didn't want to hear even if it was from God, and for this, the King tried to kill the messengers!

The whole story still fits with the theme of the other thread. The Lord is sending the message and no one wants to hear and for that, the kingdom is conquered and ruled by Babylon.
edit on 14-1-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 03:21 PM
link   
First we have to understand the process that jeremiah would go through to have the lord speak through him. imo I think the physical body is used but not jeremiah's spirit which for the most part is set aside in the process. So jeremiah himself would not have been a good witness to what brarock was doing and without cause in the first place the lord would not have been checking the words as he wrote. So it is possible that the first sign that the message was not true was by the reaction of the ones to hear the word. The lord was asking for repentance and the scribe was laying future harvest plans.

Jeremiah was sent along with the scribe but was givin the protection to survive and the best way to ensure his survival was for the lord to get word to the king first that they were not to be harmed. I do not see the part where the king was mad because of the word of the lord but the scrolls were burnt anyhow.

Note that when the second scroll was written the scribe was dictating but the lord was not speaking through jeremiah at that time and that is how the lord discerned who was adding to the word.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 03:25 PM
link   

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It does not say that words were added to what Jeremiah dictated. Just to what he had dictated the first time round.

Note the fact that they were "many SIMILAR words". In other words, not a different message, but a continuation of the old one.

Note also that this final verse contains no criticism whatever of the "additional words". The point of the verse is "the king wanted to suppress the word of God but could not, because the Lord is capable of repeating what he said and adding more on the same lines".



You are trying to read into the situation something that is not there.




Jeremiah was not giving dictation directly from the lord the second time but he was reciting by memory and the lord was discerning who was in error.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 03:43 PM
link   
a reply to: deadeyedick
You have no reason for saying that.
There is no suggestion in the story that any error was involved.
The ONLY person coming under criticism in this chapter is the king (vv30-31).

All this stuff about "errors" and "different messages" is coming entirely out of your imagination.
That is the only kind of falsification involved in the case.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 03:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: deadeyedick
I do not see the part where the king was mad because of the word of the lord but the scrolls were burnt anyhow..

The Lord himself says that the king was mad because of the word of the Lord.
"Thus says the Lord God; "You have burned this scroll, saying 'Why have you written it it saying that the king of Babylon will certainly come and destroy this land...?'" vv29
(And that report in itself shows that the scroll which was burned had the same message Jeremiah gave in other chapters).

It's all a question of reading what the passage says, honestly and without falsification.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 03:55 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

i seee just ignore everything presented. I never made the claim that the king or the people were above the rath of God or that they were angels. Logic tells us that the lord was coming through jeremiah in the first place to try and save them through repention but found even great sins in the scribe than that of the king or the people.

The second time the scroll was written was not by dictation from words of the lord but the scribe added words to the origional time the lord spoke through jeremiah but no command to make up shat was ever givin. Today we read all the words and the added words and are known as the book of revelations. It was designed to be used as a means of bringing an end to christianity and allowing a false ruler to rule the earth.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 04:04 PM
link   

originally posted by: deadeyedick
The second time the scroll was written was not by dictation from words of the lord but the scribe added words to the origional time the lord spoke through jeremiah but no command to make up shat was ever givin.

All this comes entirely out of your imagination. There is nothing in the passage that says so.
The passage is indicating that the Lord was giving Jeremiah additional words continuing the same message as the original scroll.
The text says so; "SIMILAR words"- v32. In other words, not a new or different message at all. Just more of the same thing that Jeremiah had been saying all along.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 04:14 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

you assume everything in your post.

The current understanding of that chapter is also assumptions.

The term like words could refer to many things. Perhaps it is just pointing out that the same laungauge was being used. Every word in this thread is SIMILAR. It is all english all describing chapter 36 of Jeremiah.

A shark is similar to a dolphin...



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 04:24 PM
link   

originally posted by: deadeyedick
The current understanding of that chapter is also assumptions.

The current understanding of the chapter is based on reading the words.
Your understanding is based on ignoring nearly everything that the chapter says.



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 06:12 PM
link   
The whole chapter is chocked full of deciet and reeks of people playing both sides. If you look close you will find that the king never burnt the scroll but it was burnt by jehudi who was employed by the princes who convienently hid the two. The princes were also not surprised nor scared when they heard that the lord had vowed to destroy if they did not repent. The princes always seem to be much more than just bystanders. I am very much wondering about a plot to overthrow the king and cause him to loose favor with the lord.



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 11:27 AM
link   
a reply to: deadeyedick

I'm with Disraeli on this one.
You're reading into it something that isn't there.

Honestly, I'm wondering how you even came up with this stuff....


originally posted by: deadeyedick
The princes were also not surprised nor scared when they heard that the lord had vowed to destroy if they did not repent. The princes always seem to be much more than just bystanders. I am very much wondering about a plot to overthrow the king and cause him to loose favor with the lord.


What are you even talking about here? It clearly says the princes were afraid when they heard the words....


14 Therefore all the princes sent Jehudi the son of Nethaniah, the son of Shelemiah, the son of Cushi, unto Baruch, saying, Take in thine hand the roll wherein thou hast read in the ears of the people, and come. So Baruch the son of Neriah took the roll in his hand, and came unto them.

15 And they said unto him, Sit down now, and read it in our ears. So Baruch read it in their ears.

16 Now it came to pass, when they had heard all the words, they were afraid both one and other, and said unto Baruch, We will surely tell the king of all these words.


Furthermore, it was the king who burned the rolls. It says so 3 different times :



22 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.

23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.


The king sat in the winterhouse. The fire was burning before the him. Jehudi read three or four leaves, and then he (the king) cast it into the fire that was burning before him.


25 Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.




28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.


This is God speaking here. He says that the king burned the roll. It even says that the princes begged him not to! Good night!
edit on 15-1-2015 by graphuto because: (no reason given)







 
1
<<   2 >>

log in

join