Doubts raised over authenticity of Charlie Hebdo footage

originally posted by: mcChoodles
AK rounds have a steel rod in the center for piercing armor.

Only the Chinese manufacture the steel penetrator round and the reason for the Soviets dropping it from production was that it penetrated soft targets too easily without doing significant damage.

originally posted by: mcChoodles
You're missing the point. The video footage is real. There's no debating that. AK rounds have a steel rod in the center for piercing armor.

That round would blast a hole in concrete the size of a softball. Even if it passed through, which is BS, there would have been a huge puff of concrete dust.

I've blasted cinder blocks to dust with those rounds.

Not to mention there should have been an audible echo from the round in an urban setting. Unless there was no round exiting the barrel.

It was a blank. No doubt.

So you are saying that only one type of round exists for an AK? Sorry...credibility fail.....

And I actually HAVE fired numerous AK's and 7.62x39 ammo and can without a doubt tell you that you are incorrect.

a reply to: boymonkey74

To be honest no.

I didn't read the article for that reason, I had already seen the uncut footage and based my opinion on that.

originally posted by: Jakal26
Mods...

Can you go ahead and close this, please.
The information (disinformation that is) has been "deconstructed" and the conclusion that the link was bs has been established, well beyond a reasonable doubt.

I had NO intention on starting a thread regarding whether or not the actual murder (shot to the head) was legit or not as I believe it to be just what we see...A guy being executed.

So...since that is what this has devolved into, even though the OP EXPLICITLY explained my position on such (and yes, I did engage in some of it to, with some of the members I hold in higher regard than others) this thread should just be closed...or 404'd or whatever the hell ya'll wanna do with it.

Thanks again to those that provided concrete evidence of the site being illegitimate.
And thanks for the resources (like WhoIS) that I can use in the future so I don't have to come into the lion's den to try to glean the information.

Sounds like you wanted the thread closed from the start. It was clear to me that this was a debunking thread from the beginning. I ain't buying it starting with the "tin foil hat" line in the opening post.

Nothing to see here folks. Its already been debunked by the "experts."

It

a reply to: dam00

None but I've seen plenty of point blank head shots to know that a jerk is a given.


Anyone claiming that he wouldn't jerk even 1mm is either pushing something or doesn't want to believe it.


The bullet clearly tore up the concrete and then he rolled into a foetal position...
That's not the reaction of anybody shot at point blank with a Damned assault rifle.



Let me ask you, how many times have you shot a human from point blank range with such a powerful assault rifle?

Is that what we're basing our opinions on?

Who's murdered someone at point blank?

I'm not talking about Deer or Hog with completely different craniums, I'm talking about humans who carry a large percentage of body water in the head but somehow don't splash a drop from point blank!

a reply to: mcChoodles

Yeah, that's what it was.

How utterly typical of some of the lot here.
Provide them with facts....or put something in the DECONSTRUCTING MISINFORMATION forum (where the very purpose of the forum is to DISSEMINATE factual information from bs) and I am a "shill" an "agent".....all just bs hyperbole.

I assumed, from the start that it wasn't very legit...and that is why I put it in this forum. It was early and I wasn't up to task in regards to finding out more about the site...I brought it here because some here are VERY good (and fast) with that sort of thing.

Between here an fb....that's about 200 times today I've been accused of being "a shill" for asserting facts online...
Lets me know I'm getting under the skin of those ACTUALLY pushing agendas and the ones who are doing nothing but confirming their own bias.....

Yeah, if that makes me a "shill" then so be it....
I see another poster I can no longer take seriously....but thanks for outing yourself, bud.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

None but I've seen plenty of point blank head shots to know that a jerk is a given.

And I U2U'd you asking if you wanted to see proof that sometimes (notice the "sometimes) wounds can cauterize and you won't see all the "mess"........you are yet to respond.

I still have the link.
Again, it's most def against T&C so I won't post it to the boards.....it is disturbing.

ETA:

I'm talking about humans who carry a large percentage of body water in the head but somehow don't splash a drop from point blank!

And you are STILL refusing to look up the definition of and the reasoning for wound cauterization....How many times must I repeat those words...WOUND...CAUTERIZATION?....how many, before you go see what it means.?

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: dam00

None but I've seen plenty of point blank head shots to know that a jerk is a given.


Anyone claiming that he wouldn't jerk even 1mm is either pushing something or doesn't want to believe it.


The bullet clearly tore up the concrete and then he rolled into a foetal position...
That's not the reaction of anybody shot at point blank with a Damned assault rifle.



Let me ask you, how many times have you shot a human from point blank range with such a powerful assault rifle?

Is that what we're basing our opinions on?

Who's murdered someone at point blank?

I'm not talking about Deer or Hog with completely different craniums, I'm talking about humans who carry a large percentage of body water in the head but somehow don't splash a drop from point blank!

Well, for the most part, all animals carry the same percentage of water in their heads....average human brain is 3 lbs and 75% water, so roughly 2.25 lbs of water, which is nowhere near the majority of water in the average human adult which is 60% water. Globally the average human is roughly 137 Lbs. 60% of that would be 82.2 Lbs of water.....take away the head and you have 79-80lbs of water left in the body that is not in the head.

Outside of that, I have shot plenty of deer and hogs over the years and can say that with a fair amount of consistency the tend to drop immediately from a headshot without a single motion after that.

You ask about anyone killing someone, and relate that you have seen plenty somehow, but have you shot an animal in the head at range and watched what happens? Blood and guts do not go flying everywhere....not even close....especially with a FMJ round. Accuracy is key as they will go straight through without killing the animal many times....I have even experienced this with bow hunting and having arrows go clean through the body cavity and the animal run off because i did not hit a vital organ.

The water in the body isn't just sitting there sloshing around....it isn't like pouring out a glass of water. I have had plenty of puncture wounds/cuts that did not bleed immediately, and when they did bleed they only bled a minor amount. Cutting versus puncture will bleed more as it tends to hit more blood vessels where a puncture will "push" them aside.

Animal makeup is close enough to me to surmise that shooting a person would have similar results to shooting an animal with the same caliber weapon.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Shhhh....enough was the facts.

Let em have their fun.



....100 stars, if I could.

At least SOME know what the hell their talking about and have the experience to back up their assertions.

a reply to: Jakal26

Didn't recieve a U2U Jakal.


I know what cauterisation is, when a wound seals because of the heat...
I do trust you when you say that...

But I'm not worried about "mess"... Even through I do wonder...

My point is the lack of a head jerk from a head shot from point blank with an assault rifle...
I don't buy it...

Especially when all the assault rifle head shots I've seen inflicted on a human all had a jerk...
All except this one...

Am I supposed to believe this magic bullet flew through him so fast and clean that he appeared to not even be an obstacle on the trajectory...?

If something penetrates, and smashed through someone's skull at that velocity, they're gonna jerk...

I'm not talking about what's happened when people go hunting, I'm talking about a human cranium...
You won't get me to believe that it wouldn't cause the head to jerk even a millimetre in some direction...

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Has it been confirmed that he was indeed shot in the head and not anywhere else in his body?

a reply to: Vasa Croe

I don't believe an moving animal is the same as a static human laying on there side...

Secondly I said I'm not asking about Hogs & Deers which would no doubt have stronger necks & tougher craniums than a Human would...

It's not comparible imo...


I was asked if I had experience with an assault rifle, so I stuck with it and solidified the question with the facts of a point blank range shot to the back of the head on a human...

If anyone ere has done that let them answer...

If not, having said already I watched an ISIS video with men lined up face down shot in the back of the head and every single one of them jerks...

I'm not focusing on blood and guts no matter how much I wonder, because I already understand that this does not always occur...
The head jerk does...

I'm supposed to believe this bullet was powerful enough to tear up a large church of concrete but couldn't make a man's head move a millimetre?
Not a chance of me believing that.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I've heard no reports of that but I'm quite sure he was shot a few times in the torso & back when he crumpled over.
That to me was an indication the first few shots fired from behind the van did indeed strike the officer.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

It was more in reference to the supposed coup de grace. If his head did not move, and it is hard for me to see clearly with the poor quality video, he may not have been shot in the head and instead shot elsewhere (or nowhere).

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Yeah that's definitely a possibility...

The only thing I've personally ruled out is the head shot kill shot...
It may have even grazed the side of his head unseen by the camera angle and ricocheted into the concrete...
I wouldn't expect a jerk reaction from that...



I just don't see the logic, despite my appreciation for others experience with Hogs & Deers...
No human would clash head to head with either, because they'd crack our skulls...
Same way they'd defeat us in a tug of war with neck muscles...

So I don't see the comparison to be fair.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Yeah that's definitely a possibility...

The only thing I've personally ruled out is the head shot kill shot...
It may have even grazed the side of his head unseen by the camera angle and ricocheted into the concrete...
I wouldn't expect a jerk reaction from that...



I just don't see the logic, despite my appreciation for others experience with Hogs & Deers...
No human would clash head to head with either, because they'd crack our skulls...
Same way they'd defeat us in a tug of war with neck muscles...

So I don't see the comparison to be fair.

Softer target means easier penetration. A bullet yaw in a 7.62 round will occur at a distance which will cause a larger cavity and possible movement. At close range, there is no yaw. Depending on the type of round, likely a Russian FMJ round with steel core used here, it will pass through any part of the body creating a small entry and similar sized exit wound. This is well documented my many forensic tests and can be verified by researching it a bit on several military and other forums.

The jerk of the body occurs only when the CNS has not been disrupted. If the round traveled through the head and immediately cut the CNS then the body will not move at all...in this case, his body rolled naturally back the the position it was in when he turned his head and looked up. There was no other movement than that. And sure, a bullet will kick up concrete when it hits because concrete is much more dense than a human head....a human head, or animal head, a round like this will pass through it like it was butter.

The issue is, not every shooting is going to happen the same way. Saying that this head shot can't be real because you have never seen it happen is not really a valid argument since some have seen it happen that way and some have not. I can only speak to animals reacting that way, and the fact that the human skull is not as dense as other animals lends more credibility to the head not moving and the round passing through with no movement by the victim other than slumping back to the original resting position.

There is also the possibility that one of the other rounds that hit him before the head shot had severed his spine as it appears he can't move his legs in the video, and is only able to move his upper body. There is ample research done on the "shock wave" created by a 7.62 round causing spinal compression and paralysis even from being shot in the leg.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: dam00

None but I've seen plenty of point blank head shots to know that a jerk is a given.


Anyone claiming that he wouldn't jerk even 1mm is either pushing something or doesn't want to believe it.


The bullet clearly tore up the concrete and then he rolled into a foetal position...
That's not the reaction of anybody shot at point blank with a Damned assault rifle.



Let me ask you, how many times have you shot a human from point blank range with such a powerful assault rifle?

Is that what we're basing our opinions on?

Who's murdered someone at point blank?

I'm not talking about Deer or Hog with completely different craniums, I'm talking about humans who carry a large percentage of body water in the head but somehow don't splash a drop from point blank!

I think we used to call them snuff movies, now we just call them ISIS videos, you say you have seen plenty of people being shot in the head at point blank range enough to make you an expert apparently, I am no expert at how people react to being shot I will be honest its really all I see in the movies, but I know this is no basis for my argument, infact I dont have an argument, I have been following this subject though and have seen many well based arguments for both sides of it
and I have seen nothing to make me think this is false, I put it to you that you are pushing or dont want to beleive something (or not believe, which ever the case may be) and I think I have answered most of your questions, so let me ask you one.
where have you got all your experience in seeing people being shot in the head at point blank range?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Off topic...

Didn't recieve a U2U Jakal.

Will attempt to send it again. It said it sent to you. Will try again though.


Having said that, I do think you raise some questions that are not that "far out"...
Thanks for sticking with this conversation/debate and providing opposing viewpoints to my own in the face of much skepticism. It's admirable, I have to admit...(respect given where it is due )

But I think Vasa Croe makes some very knowledge arguments below this comment that I am now replying to as well.

.....even though this was not the topic of this thread, I am glad that it has "went here" (since the mods didn't close it like I requested...lol)....

I like the differing viewpoints....and the knowledge I glean here, at times.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

According to an article I read, it said autopsies were to start on the 9th.

I've had a quick look for details but no luck so far..

a reply to: Chadwickus

I'll be keeping an eye on that...

....only because of the amount of time I've already invested in this debate...

..............
On a side note, I feel "dirty" discussing this in such detail, tbh.

....just sayin'.