HAARP Moon Bounce for military reasons??, page 1
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reply posted on 2-6-2003 @ 10:46 PM by ADVISOR
Originally posted by dragonrider
Why would you want to bounce signals off the Moon?

www.yfiles.com...


Because it is the largest sattelite we have, just for one second try and calculate the possiblities...what does a dish/sat.dish do?

Exactly.


reply posted on 3-6-2003 @ 05:57 PM by dragonrider
Researcher:

The abstract attached to the HAARP patent application:

The present invention provides a system and method for generating a plasma layer at controlled altitudes and inclinations that acts as an artificial ionospheric mirror (AIM) to reflect RF signals. The AIM increases the range and predictability with which RF energy may be reflected off the AIM for communications purposes. More specifically, a tiltable AIM is created by a heater antenna controlled in phase and frequency. The heater antenna phase shift scans a beam to paint a plasma layer. The heater antenna continually refocuses at a higher altitudes by frequency shifting to tilt the plasma layer.

www.worldofthestrange.com...

about 0.9 Hz. And why is that? By corkscrewing the signal, the ions in the upper atmosphere do not just race madly back and forth, instead they move in BIG circles. And you can get the most ions running around the "race course" just above HAARP if you make them have a "lap time" of about once per second.

What determines the optimum "lap time" is something called the plasma density and is related to the temperature, number of ions, number of neutral atoms in the ionosphere, and some other factors I won't mention here. (Note: For more information on plasma density consult any of the many graduate texts on plasma physics. Also, I have oversimplified the relation between the 0.9 Hz signal and the "lap time." It is not my purpose here to provide a complete description of ionospheric cyclotronic interactions.)



By making the ions, both electrons and protons, move in big circles they each become little electromagnets with a north and south pole. At the latitude of HAARP in Gakona, Alaska the earth's magnetic field lines are nearly vertical. So if the HAARP circular polarization is either clockwise or counter-clockwise you can make the ions racing around at 0.9 Hz either be attracted to the earth's magnetic north pole or repelled. If the circling ions are attracted, then they would simply spiral downward toward the earth's north pole and run into the denser atmosphere and might produce a very weak aurora, hence the name High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. That's all very interesting but its not exactly the real purpose of HAARP.

www.brojon.org...


reply posted on 3-6-2003 @ 09:18 PM by Byrd
Originally posted by dragonrider
Byrd:

Please read the previous post, I think it explains a great deal, especially the second one.


I did, and no it didn't. Remember, the Moon's magnetic poles are weak-to-nonexistant.

Your point is well taken, and correct if you assume you are using the entire available surface area of the moon, or significantly large portions of it as a reflector.
However, if you use a tight enough beam (a square mile or less in area) you can use a relatively level area of the moon as a reflector.


That's just it... you can't get that sort of targeted area with the wavelengths you're talking about... remember the inverse square law. If you'd been talking about lasers, I would have agreed unhesitatingly. And although the wavelength of the radio freqency may be exact, the distance from the Earth's surface to the moon does vary slightly.


Also, what if this is essentially target practice for a non-terrestrial target?


Not very useful, actually. WE know about long length radio waves, and it's a bet that any creature who could travel stellar or interstellar or interplanetary distances isn't going to be preturbed/spied on/threatened in any way by something like that. U.S. troops don't freak out over someone having a periscope or a slingshot, for example.

And as for ...oh... say, Korea on the moon, well, assuming someone could get up there, their position would be so precarious that it would be laughable. A nice nuclear warhead would take out any Terrans up there.

I don't see any good scenario for weaponry usage. For measurement usage and data transmission usage, certainly.


reply posted on 5-3-2008 @ 02:11 AM by Phil123
Originally posted by astrocreep
Actually, moonbounce is very possible and is used already by amateur operators for round the world communications. I've never done it as it takes a dish , from what I've read, but i have thought about building one a trying it.

As for the possibilty of RF cooking a person, hell yeah it can happen. It cooks you from the inside out just like a microwave oven. Take a look at the test for any amateur level and at least half of it is exposure limits questions.

I spoke with the dad-in-law last night about this subject as he is an extra class ham, RF technician, and founder of their tower company and he believes this to be a highly feasable theory.


Yes, moon bounce is used regularly by amateur radio operators as means of communicating over big distances on VHF/UHF and even microwave frequencies. Radio amateurs call it 'EME' which refers to a signal going from the Earth to the Moon to the Earth.

Fairly simple antenna systems can be used the most popular being yagi antennas usually stacked to create what is called an antenna array, dishes are also used on the higher frequencies, usually above 1 GHz.

Here is a picture of an American radio amateurs (AF9Y) moon bounce array used on the 144 MHz band:





Radio amateurs have been using the moon to bounce their signals off for decades. Just Google eme moonbounce and you will find plenty of info on it.

Take a look at this clip of a radio amateur transmitting on the 1.2 GHZ band and listening to himself being reflected back from the moon:



[edit on 5/3/08 by Phil123]


reply posted on 16-3-2008 @ 11:33 PM by Zeptepi
Haarp asked hams for help.
An invitation from HAARP for ham radio ops. To help plot a moon bounce test signal.
Which many participated in, including me. Using a 186 foot long ant. Up 70Ft. The measured signals at my station were very weak at times, less than .1 microvolts. Levels were measured by comparing them to a calibrated signal generator and precision attenuators. With a measured 5hz Doppler shift.


This you would not hear in the speaker. It required special digital signal processing (DSP)
To bring the signal up to even be measured. And a beacon scope (Spectran) to see it.

-145 db not going to cook a thing.

Inverse square law is in effect here

Special bulletin 2 ARLX002 ARRL Headquarters

ARLX002 Lunar Echo Experiment looking for Amateur Radio Participants
SB SPCL @ ARL $ARLX002
ARLX002 Lunar Echo Experiment looking for Amateur Radio Participants

ZCZC AX02
QST de W1AW
Special Bulletin 2 ARLX002
From ARRL Headquarters
Newington CT January 17, 2008
To all radio amateurs

SB SPCL ARL ARLX002
ARLX002 Lunar Echo Experiment looking for Amateur Radio Participants

The HF Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Alaska and the
Long Wavelength Array (LWA) in New Mexico are planning an additional
lunar echo experiment for January 18-19.

Interested radio amateurs are invited to participate in this
experiment by listening for the lunar echoes and submitting reports.

On January 19, listen on 6.7925 MHz from 0500-0600z, and on 7.4075
MHz from 0600-0700z. On January 20, listen on 6.7925 MHz from
0630-0730z and on 7.4075 MHz from 0730-0830z (depending on frequency
occupancy at the time of operation, it may be necessary to adjust
the frequency slightly).

Based on previous experiments, investigators believe it should be
possible to hear the lunar echoes with a standard communications
receiver and a simple 40 meter dipole antenna. The format for the
transmissions will follow a five second cycle beginning on the hour
and repeating continuously.

The HAARP transmitter will transmit for the first two seconds. The
next three seconds will be quiet to listen for the lunar echo. Then
HAARP will transmit again for two seconds, repeating the cycle for
one hour. In the second hour, this five second repetitive cycle will
be repeated at a different frequency. All transmissions from HAARP
will be CW (no modulation).

Depending on ionospheric conditions, it may or may not be possible
to hear the HAARP transmission directly via skywave propagation.
Since HAARP will not be using any modulation, set your receiver on
to CW mode to hear HAARP and the lunar echo. Investigators are
interested in receiving signal reports from radio amateurs who may
be able to detect -- or not detect-- the lunar echo or the
transmitted skywave pulse from HAARP.

Submit reports via e-mail to mbreport@haarp.alaska.edu and list your
call sign and the type and location of your receiving equipment and
antennas.


And An E-mail response to confirm the reception reports:
Still waiting for my QSL card.


Thank you for your participation in the HAARP-LWA Moon Bounce
experiments of 19 and 20 January 2008. We have received over 1500
reports from amateur radio hams throughout the USA and other
countries, including Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Italy, Russia,
Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Marshall Islands, Hawaii, and Japan. We
apologize if we have not listed your country; we have not yet been
able to review all reports. These reports will help us to understand
the propagation characteristics of the HAARP skywave and lunar
echoes. As we review your reports we plan to post on the HAARP website
further information learned from these experiments.

If you would like a QSL card confirmation of your reception, please
send us your card with the reception details to our address:

HAARP ReHAARP Research Facility
Milepost 11.3, PO Box 271
Gakona, AK 99586
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