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Faith the determining factor? I don't think so! Good works and love are more important.

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posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 09:11 AM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes




God made everything even Jesus


There's some real HERESY right there!




posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 09:15 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko




1. You need to buy your way into Heaven which makes it selfish centering it all on you not the person you are helping.

2. You do it as a selfish act of pride. You want others to see and know how "good" you are.

3. You do it because it is the right thing to do and the other person needs it. A loving act toward your neighbor.


Which one of the above was the motivation of the "Good Samaritan", in Jesus' parable? What amount of faith did the Samaritan have BEFORE he decided to help a stranger? What was the purpose of that parable?



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 09:15 AM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes

Jesus said that whatever you don't do for your neighbor you don't do for him, meaning to love your neighbour and do good to them is to do the same for him. That puts loving God and your neighbor on equal ground.


John 8
12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."



Matthew 5
14 "You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.


Again, Jesus puts us on equal ground with himself.


John 14
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.


We are in him and he is in us, another admission of equality for all.

Who are his disciples?


John 15
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.


Those who keep his commands of loving one another. Notice how there is absolutely no mention of belief in a sacrifice. Know why? Because:


Mark 12
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


No sacrifice required, only love for God and others.
edit on 1/11/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 09:22 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I disagree, when you help a family member is it to make yourself feel good or is it simply to help them out? I don't help others because I want to feel good, I do it because I know I would want to be treated the same way.

I have an extended family that includes all life, not just those I know or like. I treat everyone equally just as Jesus said to do, not because out makes new feel good but because I know it's the right thing to do.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Also notice how he never once commanded us to believe in a sacrifice


I agree, so if jesus never said it then it must have been made up by man.
How did something that was made up by man become more important than what jesus himself said?

one more bible quote about love to add:


1 Corinthians 13:13 ...But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Again we are told that Love is greater than Faith.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: Tardacus

How did faith become more important? This is why:


Romans 3
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.


Because Paul says so, not Jesus. Why does Paul say that we are justified by faith alone when he also says that faith means nothing without love (good works)? Because he is the deceiver.

You can't sell a lie if there is no truth to go along with it, Paul mixed truth with lies and put all the emphasis on the lies. All good lies are founded on top of truth.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: bitsforbytes
Please bare with me.

To love God as yourself you need to believe in him, hence you need faith.


Not really. When you love others without faith and help others then you automatically love the highest one thru others. I was myself a person that had no spiritual faith in this life but had a spiritual awakening that made me have connection to something more. The more on the other side knows what you are and will reveal itself when it is time. How the relations ship will be is something you and it will have to decide.

You might use man made religion to seek the spirit but the spirit energy knows on all levels what you are.
1 Rumi knew what he was talking about.
2 Jesus knew what he was talking about.
3 Buddha knew what he wad talking about.
4 Nanek knew what he was talking about.

4 different people from different backgrounds who moved beyond faith to knowing.
Namaste
edit on 11-1-2015 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 01:20 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stosh64


I believe Jesus was the Son of God, that He died on the cross for my sins, and rose again. I know I am a sinner, and that nothing I can do will be good enough in HIS eyes. I


This is why you have to repeat that in church you know... so you can bust it out just like that...

And Jesus didn't teach that by the way... HE never said NOTHING you can do is good enough...

That is a crock of... well you know... Paul


Please don't presume to know me, I do not go to church. And I don't have anything I mindlessly "repeat".

I simply stated my beliefs and tried to express that my 'faith' is nurtured through a relationship with Jesus.
If you want to go with the 'new age' philosophy of love is all, be my guest.
I am glad people like you are perfect and NOT in need of repentance.
I on the other hand am a fallen person and in need of Gods Grace.

ETA: I am not going to debate you on this as I have seen it time and time again here that it is pointless.
I simply wanted to state what I believe so others can consider it also.
I wish you well on your love is all philosophy.


Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

edit on 1 11 2015 by stosh64 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 08:01 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I agree, to love your neighbor is to serve him as you serve God.

I didn't address anything about sacrifice, but I agree with what Jesus said.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 08:05 PM
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a reply to: windword

I believe God did create everything, now I understand that Jesus could be God in the flesh for some or he could be a prophet which implies he is human with divine connections for others. I don't mind that stuff, the teachings that Jesus brought which are ultimately Gods will are what are important.

Even if you don't believe (I am assuming you don't based on previous posts) in God, don't you think that what Jesus teaches makes sense?



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 08:17 PM
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a reply to: LittleByLittle

Faith is knowing.

Because you place complete trust in God even if you don't have any physical proof.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 09:12 PM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes

I'd argue that "faith" is just another word for love. Christians claim that good works are a product of faith but they are actually a product of love. Faith is the product of love and good works not the other way around, when someone says they have faith in humanity it is usually after a good act is witnessed, hence faith being the product of good works. Good works themselves are products of love.

Love > Good Works > Faith

Notice how the arrows that point to the next step also point back at love as the greatest, this verifies what Jesus (and Paul) said about love being the greatest commandment. This may be why Paul says that faith justifies us, because it is the end product of love. Faith is not belief in a sacrifice, faith is belief in love and God is love. What leads to justification (or condemnation)? In the same way that good works lead to faith, actions lead to justification/faith (or condemnation). Paul changed the meaning to suit the churches needs.

This does not mean that faith is the determining factor though because without love (then good works) there would be nothing (no faith/dead faith), just as Paul and James stated.

Faith, hope, and love? No, it is faith, good works, and love. Hope IS faith, Paul left out good works and replaced it with another word for faith. Love IS the greatest of the three though, so he was right about that part.

This is not an endorsement for Paul either, only a spotlight on his deception.
edit on 1/11/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 09:51 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

To add to faith being the same as hope, hope is considered by some to be related to the word hop. Hopping (hope/faith) is the product of an action just as hope/faith is the product of good works.

The dragon (Satan) swept a third of the stars out of the sky just as Paul swept good works (a third of faith, "hope", and love) from the thoughts of believers and replaced it with hope, which is just another word for faith.

Things are connecting.

edit on 1/11/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 10:04 PM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
This isn't going to be a terribly long thread, I'll let the bible do most of the talking for me.

Christian doctrine states that faith is the most important factor in salvation, this is a lie and one of the fundamental problems with the world today in my opinion.


Then let the Bible talk for you.


Hebrews 11:6 [Full Chapter] And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


Oh, you missed an entire Book of Hebrews. Lots of stuff about faith in there.
edit on 1/11/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 10:37 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Who wrote Hebrews though? No one knows for certain, most scholars agree that it is pseudo-Paul, someone else writing in his name.

Paul's epistles are the antithesis to Jesus' words, this is why you are using his words (or someone speaking for him at least) to refute what I presented in my OP, which are Jesus' (and Paul's) actual words. Why are you trying to refute Jesus with pseudo-Paul? Why is Paul refuting himself and why is pseudo-Paul refuting the real Paul?

You have the definition of faith wrong. Faith is belief in love, and God is love, so faith is belief in God in that way. Faith is the product of good works and good works are the product of love. Love is the greatest commandment, faith is the end result of love and good works.


Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


If you do not have faith it is impossible to please God because if you do not please God who is love that means you did not love others and do good works and thus no faith was gained, hence without faith you cannot please God. Pseudo-Paul is putting all emphasis on faith instead of its source love, which is the greatest of all three.
edit on 1/11/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 11:18 PM
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originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

Who wrote Hebrews though? No one knows for certain, most scholars agree that it is pseudo-Paul, someone else writing in his name.

Paul's epistles are the antithesis to Jesus' words, this is why you are using his words (or someone speaking for him at least) to refute what I presented in my OP, which are Jesus' (and Paul's) actual words. Why are you trying to refute Jesus with pseudo-Paul? Why is Paul refuting himself and why is pseudo-Paul refuting the real Paul?

You have the definition of faith wrong. Faith is belief in love, and God is love, so faith is belief in God in that way. Faith is the product of good works and good works are the product of love. Love is the greatest commandment, faith is the end result of love and good works.

If you do not have faith then you cannot please God because if you do not please God who is love that means you did not do good works and thus no faith was gained, hence without faith you cannot please God. Pseudo-Paul is putting all emphasis on faith instead of its source love, which is the greatest of all.


Here we go "blah, blah, blah" again, just because it disagrees with what you want to think it should say and not what it does say.

You said "let the Bible talk for me" so I did and you didn't want it, so you disagree. Sorry, without faith it is impossible to please God.

By faith, Abraham went out to seek a city whose builder and maker is God. Do you seek less of a city and one that you have to build yourself, because you have no faith that God is the builder and maker of that city?

Go right ahead, you keep trying to get your city built. You are doing it by your lonely little self if you don't have faith that God already did it.

But hey, faith isn't for you. that's cool. Just remember, as Jesus said "oh you of little faith". Go ahead, stop the storm by commanding the storm to cease, can you do that without faith?



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 11:41 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy



Here we go "blah, blah, blah" again, just because it disagrees with what you want to think it should say and not what it does say.


This is you not reading what I said, you are blocking it out and saying irrational things in order to somehow make my words less meaningful in your own mind. Maybe you got through the first paragraph but you stopped reading and posted this response without actually reading what I said. I apologize if I'm wrong, that's just the impression I got from your response.

Also, faith is for me. I have faith in love and thus God. Seems like you're the one going "blah blah blah" because someone doesn't agree with you.
edit on 1/11/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: swype



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 09:41 AM
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originally posted by: bitsforbytes
a reply to: windword

I believe God did create everything, now I understand that Jesus could be God in the flesh for some or he could be a prophet which implies he is human with divine connections for others. I don't mind that stuff, the teachings that Jesus brought which are ultimately Gods will are what are important.

Even if you don't believe (I am assuming you don't based on previous posts) in God, don't you think that what Jesus teaches makes sense?


I agree with most of it. But there is some that just was never meant to be taken literally. Some of what he taught really only begins to make sense when you look at from a different angle.





I don't really expect you to listen to hours of lectures, although I really love this guy, If you listen to the first couple of minutes of each video, he explains the gist of what I'm trying to get at.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 07:46 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I agree with most of what you wrote.

Faith is trusting without any proof. So you have faith first.

To love you need trust. Would you love a car you just bought if it broke down on you all the time?

Did you have faith the car would be good before buying it, if we assume you bought it on a whim without trying it? Yes you did.

Faith is blind trust.

You don't need proof to have faith. To have love you need unconditional trust and to unconditionally trust is to have faith. I guess they all follow each other, kind of like..........a trinity.


So if you wait for proof to trust then you have no faith which means you have no love?


edit on 12-1-2015 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-1-2015 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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a reply to: windword

I don't think parables are not to be taken literally, in some cases yes and other no. Some take time to understand, many I still don't. I just know what some other person said about it, but I don't actually really understand it to the point of explaining it in simple terms.

Why would you emphasize that the bible is not to be taken literally? Is it in reference to my "God made everything"?




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