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Faith the determining factor? I don't think so! Good works and love are more important.

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posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:16 PM
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This isn't going to be a terribly long thread, I'll let the bible do most of the talking for me.

Christian doctrine states that faith is the most important factor in salvation, this is a lie and one of the fundamental problems with the world today in my opinion.

A few quotes that discredit this idea:


Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.


Jesus says that if you forgive others then his Father will also forgive you. No sacrifice.


Matthew 9
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


Jesus desired mercy and NOT sacrifice.


Luke 6
46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


You can believe Jesus is the Lord (faith), but if you don't do as he says it means nothing.

What did Jesus tell us to do?


Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’


Love God and others as yourself.

What if we have faith? Isn't that the most important aspect of salvation? No it's not.


1 Corinthians 13
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


If you have faith but not love, your faith means NOTHING. And this is from the poster boy of faith-based salvation: Paul.


2 Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Again, Paul reiterates the fact that we are judged based on our actions and not what we think or believe.

What we "do" while in the body. Doing requires action, not belief.


Galatians 5
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


Let's ignore the fact that Paul forgets to mention loving God as well (as Jesus instructs). The point is that loving others fulfils the entire law, meaning that if you love others as yourself then you have kept the law of love and are saved. Jesus supposedly fulfilled the law, that's because he loved others as himself not because he died on a cross.

And finally:


Mark 12
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


To love God and your neighbour is more important than ANY sacrifice or burnt offering.

Wasn't Jesus supposedly sacrificed for us? Well, according to this man (who Jesus agreed with), loving others and doing good to them is more important than that supposed sacrifice.

If you love others, no sacrifice is needed for salvation.

Maybe belief in Jesus' sacrifice is an excuse for believers to not love others and to not do good to them? Either way, Christian doctrine contradicts not only Jesus but also its poster boy Paul at times.

All of these quotes are their own context, they mean exactly what they say so I haven't taken anything out of context because the words speak for themselves.

Faith-based salvation is the work of "Satan" (mans ego), not God. Satan masquerades as an angel of light and faith in sacrifice is his go-to weapon.

Thanks for reading.




posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:21 PM
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Excellent thread!


It's blind clinical faith that leads to radicalism and elements like we see in both radical Islam and Fundamental Christianity.

Let's not forget Matthew 7 22-23




22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:25 PM
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Please bare with me.

To love God as yourself you need to believe in him, hence you need faith.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: markosity1973

Thank you. I forgot this one too:


James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Faith without works is dead. If a Christian has faith but not works then their faith means nothing. That means works are the determining factor in salvation, NOT faith.

If they have faith but their actions betray them then good works are more important than faith.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:35 PM
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originally posted by: bitsforbytes
Please bare with me.

To love God as yourself you need to believe in him, hence you need faith.


Yes, but there is a subtle difference between belief and faith.

i.e. You can believe in something for a number of reasons. Those things are often tangible i.e. you may believe in God because you feel that he has done something specific to help you in your life.

Faith on the other hand comes from belief and does not have to have tangible links i.e. I believe in God and it says in the bible I can cast the mountains into the sea if I so command it so I have faith that I can make it happen should I so desire.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:38 PM
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I believe Jesus was the Son of God, that He died on the cross for my sins, and rose again. I know I am a sinner, and that nothing I can do will be good enough in HIS eyes. I have thanked Him for his Perfect sacrifice, and have asked for forgiveness through Jesus sacrifice.



Ephesians 2:8,9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.





Jesus supposedly fulfilled the law, that's because he loved others as himself not because he died on a cross.


This is new age. please don't fall for it.

Once you accept Christ you are to strive to be Christ like, thus the verses you quoted. I agree love your neighbor as yourself, and Love the lord your God with all your heart.
But we ALL fail at this. That is why it had to be His gift to us. Saved by HIS Grace.
Works will never be enough.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:39 PM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes

To love God is to love your neighbour. You don't need faith to believe in your neighbour.


Matthew 25
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'


Whatever you do our don't do to your neighbour is what you do our don't do to God, so to love your neighbour IS to love God.

Do you need to believe or have faith in a deity to love your neighbour? Of course not.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:43 PM
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a reply to: stosh64

You cannot speak for me. I have not failed at loving others and God. Just because YOU believe you have failed at loving others does not mean everyone else has too.

Broad strokes my friend. No disrespect.

Jesus fulfilling the law is him loving his neighbors as himself. Did you not read what Paul said? Because that's exactly what he said.

edit on 1/10/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:43 PM
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originally posted by: stosh64



Jesus supposedly fulfilled the law, that's because he loved others as himself not because he died on a cross.


This is new age. please don't fall for it.



Without his sacrifice and resurrection, he would not be Christ, just another prophet.

However, many people forget the importance of Jesus' love. He gave us a couple of new commandments remember

Mark 12: 30, 31



AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

edit on 10-1-2015 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:52 PM
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a reply to: markosity1973

Also notice how he never once commanded us to believe in a sacrifice. Loving God and others are the greatest commandments, nothing is more important than those two things.

I'll post this again since others have seemed to ignore it:


Mark 12
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


This is even echoed in the OT as well.


1 Samuel 15
22 But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


To obey the Lord is to keep his commandments on love. Obeying is more important than any sacrifice.
edit on 1/10/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 11:08 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Why?

Why is love so important?

Why the emphasis of love over faith?

Why mercy instead of sacrifice?

Do you understand the purpose of those requests / demands?

Can you explain why you choose your doctrine over faith-based doctrines? Do you see something, maybe some bigger picture, that you think faith-based believers don't see? Why do you feel how you do towards faith verses works?

Do you consider love and mercy synonymous with works?



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 11:12 PM
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I agree, its all about Love and trying to be kind and help others as one can. That is what it takes.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 12:03 AM
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a reply to: stosh64


I believe Jesus was the Son of God, that He died on the cross for my sins, and rose again. I know I am a sinner, and that nothing I can do will be good enough in HIS eyes. I


This is why you have to repeat that in church you know... so you can bust it out just like that...

And Jesus didn't teach that by the way... HE never said NOTHING you can do is good enough...

That is a crock of... well you know... Paul


edit on 11-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 12:55 AM
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a reply to: Bleeeeep



Why is love so important?


Ask Jesus, he's the one who put the emphasis on love, not me. Well... he did it before me at least, and there were those before him as well.



Why the emphasis of love over faith?


Ask Paul, he's the one that said love is greater than faith, as did Jesus.



Why mercy instead of sacrifice?


Again, I'm only pointing out what Jesus said. Mercy is better than sacrifice because nothing is harmed in the process.



Do you understand the purpose of those requests / demands?


Yes I do understand the purpose of them. Do you?



Can you explain why you choose your doctrine over faith-based doctrines? Do you see something, maybe some bigger picture, that you think faith-based believers don't see? Why do you feel how you do towards faith verses works?


I think I do, but my beliefs aren't the topic here. The reason I feel this way is because works have tangible benefits, faith does not.



Do you consider love and mercy synonymous with works?


In a way I guess, I consider mercy and good works a product of love.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 02:19 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Isaiah 53
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

1 John 4

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40-41
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ -

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 02:37 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I am asking you because it matters that you understand what you are talking about.

If a child read that 1 x 2 = 2, and he was able to repeat that as a factoid, does it mean that he understands multiplication?

Obviously the answer is no, the child doesn't understand "multiplication".

And it is with that same regard that I asked you those questions earlier -- not to see if you would fail, or to just mess with you, but to see if you knew, so that maybe you could teach me some higher "equations" or so that I could help you understand the some.

The verses you have pieced together have a particular spiritual meaning and purpose, but I didn't think you understood what their spiritual purpose was, and so I asked if you understood their purpose, the bigger picture, and why.

Your reply: "Ask Jesus", "ask Paul", "yeah, do you?", and "my beliefs aren't the topic."

*Shaking my head*

The point is to find and reproduce spiritual understanding, not to just piece together a workable doctrine = right? (You see what I did there?)
edit on 1/11/2015 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 06:25 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

This is what Jesus said:

Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Love God, not love your neighbor like God. Love God and then he says to love you neighbor like yourself. That seems very clear to me. God made everything even Jesus so wouldn't make sense that we love him, that we believe in him?



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 07:27 AM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes

Belief requires action or it is just words... or a fuzzy feeling

Without evidence of the belief... it is nothing

IF one believes in Jesus, they DO as he asked of them...

And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.




posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 08:10 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

God will judge us according to his standard which he has given us.

I believe that you need faith and serve mankind to be righteous in the eyes of God. In the end only God will judge, I shall fear no man but God.



posted on Jan, 11 2015 @ 08:28 AM
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There are several reasons to do good works.

1. You need to buy your way into Heaven which makes it selfish centering it all on you not the person you are helping.

2. You do it as a selfish act of pride. You want others to see and know how "good" you are.

3. You do it because it is the right thing to do and the other person needs it. A loving act toward your neighbor.

If you have faith and faith is most important, it eliminates the first reason to do works which is the wrong reason to be doing works in the first place. That leaves only two reasons. One of those is the wrong reason although good will be done. Only the third reason is the right one to do works, but if works are more important than faith, then you will have a hard time ever doing works without those works being in some small part tainted by the first reason.

We should all have the opportunity to do the right thing without having to worry about whether or not we've done enough of it to get us into Heaven.
edit on 11-1-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)




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