Speaking of the Devil....

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Means something similar where I live, too.

a reply to: Astyanax

Let's just say I struggle with a few issues in life that in all essence seems to turn me into a social idiot and a loser in anything related to love or maintaining any relation for that matter. Love is not really an option to me, and I'm not easy to love. Love's normally an obstacle that typically ends up leaving me in ruin without much else happening, and has basically been the source of all my problems in life. My condition rationalise emotions, making me hyper sensitive and a cognitive scrapheap that needs a TARDIS to make sense in. In short, I just can't rely on love. Unfortunately, me and love are worlds apart.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sorry to hear it.

We all have our disapointments, believe me.

Thing is I'd like to guess is who was the original Devil or depiction of the Devil in Greek mythology. The most obvious choice would of been Hades, Lord of the Underworld, but I think a lot of the believe of the Christian Devil stems from the three main deities in the Greek pantheon.


For example, the Christian version of Satan is a lot different then the Juda version of Satan, where Christians believe he betrayed God for convincing or seducing the rib of Adam. However, IMHO, and standpoint, I think the main story of Satan based of Lucifer fall from grace more or less. And that they were separate characters in their own respects. Satan in the Judaism, was his Left Hand man sort of speak(The Muscle more or less), and that he would be with God and his company of angel, where Satan would test the faith of those who claimed they worshiped God best, to the point where Satan would ether humiliate or leave those with such claims in spiritual ruin.

Any hoo, I think Zeus's character is based in the same way sort of speak, and the popular christian apocalypse idea, has to do with a similar story of "Pandoras Box". God(Zeus) orders another god to make a box and a women made from clay, and that this curious women would want to open( sounds like a snake in certain fertile garden), where 4 evil spirits, which are incredibly similar to the Christians "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" come out and wreak their own personification of evilness.

Also how Satan became the stereotypical devil that is often portrayed today has a history to it, where instead of the "Angelic Version", became an amalgamation of different popular beliefs. Where as instead of the cunning storm conjurer of lightning and twisters dropping house on many wives, became the "Red Horned" ruler of the underworld and the dead, and would judge the souls that go the beautiful fields or Tarturus and would want constant sex for some reason.

Also how, the modern day devil gained a trident or pitch fork that said to gather and was used to personally punish souls, is quite similar to the God of the Sea.


Did the original Satan have the depiction of a young man, or the depiction of an Old man, whose similar to God? Also, Judaism didn't have a heaven, or a hell, just the other or underworld, which is called "Hades".

Heaven didn't exist till Jesus died.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sorry to hear it.

We all have our disapointments, believe me.

Some might say life itself is a bloody mistake and an astronomical disappointment altogether. An ever escalating crapstorm of makebelieve and delusion. As a bonus comes that my idea of fun is researching and discussing religious paradoxes and mystical subjects among people who normally get pissed off sooner or later. So, what's new?

a reply to: Specimen

The way I see it, the image most Christians have of the devil is extra-bibical and in all essence a composite made from the major works of two medieval fiction writers, Dante Alighieri (The Divine Commedy) and John Milton (Paradise Lost).

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
]originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Utapisjtim: Irrelevant to you perhaps, and no need to repeat yourself, but Hitler and his marketing experts used the Pergamon altar in the marketing for the '36 Berlin Olympics, that was televised and dreaded down with nazi banners, beastly athletes and the whole thing was basically Nazi propaganda placing Hitler in Zeus' place. This is insignificant? And how it relates directly to biblical prophecy?

Heinrick Himmler was chief architect/marketer of Hitler's private army; (Hitler promoting himself as Marxist during those Olympics) not a bad concept then; National Socialist Party name was a guise. It was Himmler and his creation of the SS was the 'death head marketer'. Himmler was insane; he took germanic pagan notions of grand battles and a childhood love of "King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table" to a new NAZI interpreted level. He actually thought he could change the way Germans worshiped through his new religion/spiritualism/NATIONALISM by using an English FAIRY TALE as its basis (forget the bible). His fascination with the English is well known (being of nobility, horsebackriding, cricket). He took over a 17th century castle as his headquarters (reliving his childhood dreams of being King Arthur, you should see the now drained moat he constructed through slave labor). Sad thing, in cowardice after capture swallowed a cyanide pill. Hitler had no qualms about replacing himself in every church after coming to power, all crucifixes and depictions of Jesus were removed from these houses of worship and replaced with his image. Hitler replaced Jesus with himself. This Zeus argument of yours is meaningless.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Specimen

The way I see it, the image most Christians have of the devil is extra-bibical and in all essence a composite made from the major works of two medieval fiction writers, Dante Alighieri (The Divine Commedy) and John Milton (Paradise Lost).

How would you know (as you what, observe the Christian bug like specie)? You said you were not of the Christian faith. I could not as an outsider 'interpreter' comprehensibly speak in behalf of Mohammed's Koran and its interpretation of a 'devil' to its advocators as I am not a practitioner. You said it yourself; Dante and John Milton were 'FICTION WRITERS' (Not Real) or NOT within the 'NON-FICTION' category.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I never said Hitler was the Dragon.

My comment probably has to do more with the general propaganda that you find when Googling the thing you mentioned, the throne of Hitler.
My point is that most of what people think they know about Hitler is pure fiction that was made up to discredit him.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sorry to hear it. Some might say life itself is a bloody mistake and an astronomical disappointment altogether. An ever escalating crapstorm of makebelieve

We all have our disapointments, believe me.

and delusion. As a bonus comes that my idea of fun is researching and discussing religious paradoxes and mystical subjects among people who normally get pissed off sooner or later. So, what's new?

Some say? I would say this is your negative spewing of an agenda you color "dark" with your own disappointments cast upon others; using their innocence as a platform.

a reply to: Specimen

Thing is I'd like to guess is who was the original Devil or depiction of the Devil in Greek mythology.

There was none. The Greeks didn't have a concept of an external force that tempted human beings to do wrong — apart, that is, from the gods themselves, who could drive men mad or force them into circumstances where they were forced to comment offences of one kind or another.

The Greeks well understood that evil arises in men's hearts. It is not put there by any external agency.

There is no Devil. Evil, like good, is a human attribute.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Some might say life itself is a bloody mistake and an astronomical disappointment altogether.

Some might. Not I.

An ever escalating crapstorm of makebelieve and delusion.

I am sorry to hear that you view life in this light. I certainly do not!

As a bonus comes that my idea of fun is researching and discussing religious paradoxes and mystical subjects among people who normally get pissed off sooner or later.

I think you may be mixing up cause and effect here. I'd say the enthusiasm for 'religious paradoxes and mystical subjects' may be a 'grounding' of energies that should really be focused elsewhere. Of course, such things often become self-reinforcing.

This doctor prescribes a holiday.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The way I see it, the image most Christians have of the devil is extra-bibical and in all essence a composite made from the major works of two medieval fiction writers, Dante Alighieri (The Divine Commedy) and John Milton (Paradise Lost).

I've read both. Dis (the Devil) is not really an active character in La Commedia. He sits slobbering at the centre of Hell and takes no part in the action; he is the most damned of the damned. He has three heads, something you never see in modern depictions of Satan. Dante and Virgil climb up his thigh to get out of Hell.

Milton's Satan is a glorious character, the true hero of Paradise Lost. The following famous passage has him repudiating God, embracing his damnation and plotting to overthrow his divine Opponent. Note how he accuses God of using force to assert His superiority since He cannot assert it intellectually.

Is this the Region, this the Soil, the Clime,
Said then the lost Arch-Angel, this the seat
That we must change for Heav'n, this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so, since He
Who now is Sovran* can dispose and bid
What shall be right: fardest** from him is best
Whom reason hath equald, force hath made supream
Above his equals. Farewel happy Fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrours, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: [ 260 ]
Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.
But wherefore let we then our faithful friends,
Th' associates and copartners of our loss***
Lye thus astonisht on th' oblivious Pool,
And call them not to share with us their part
In this unhappy Mansion, or once more
With rallied Arms to try what may be yet
Regaind in Heav'n, or what more lost in Hell?

As William Blake said, Milton was of the Devil's party without knowing it.

You have forgotten a third, very important literary Devil: Mephistopheles, the tempter in Faust. Goethe's play is based on very old German folk-tales. You have also neglected to take into account the influence of the visual arts.

But the modern concept of the Devil owes less to formal art or literature than it does to folklore and superstition.

* Sovran = Sovereign; ie, God
** Farthest
*** our faithful friends/Th' associates and copartners of our loss = the other rebel angels. Note that Satan is loyal and generous to his followers.

a reply to: Astyanax

The idea that devils rule in hell is a product of fiction. The quote you brought is the source of this idea:

Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.

If we are to believe the bible, and if there is a hell, Jesus reigns in it, not the devil. If the devil showed up in hell, it would be a miracle. To me, Satan in hell would be like generals fighting in the crossfire. Not bloody likely. Satan reigns the first heaven and rules over the armies of the Earth. Or like Jesus said: Get the behind me, Satan!. Miles behind, in some war-room waaay behind their armies, with their maps and communication lines, cigars and brandy. The legs of the son of man are shining bronze, cast in solid stone, he walks through hell as he walks through barley.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I never said Hitler was the Dragon.

My comment probably has to do more with the general propaganda that you find when Googling the thing you mentioned, the throne of Hitler.

Well, I am not Google, and you'd get pretty whacky results if you searched for "Googling the thing" also (underline in quote's on me).

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Pergamon Altar was later used as a model for "the Throne of Hitler", but Adolf wasn't all that impressed with the size of the Pergamon Altar (but he liked the style), so he had his chief architect Albert Speer make a much bigger one more fit for his own caliber, as if to fulfil the prophecy of John the Scribe:

Hitler was not Satan, and this story is cooked-up propaganda. And Hitler did not start WW II, that was the English, who decided to destroy Germany back during WW I. If you were looking for Satan incarnate, you might want to look at the un-holy trinity of Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill.

If I can politely disagree. How can England (as a non player) think it could possibly initiate the destruction of Germany without having a standing navy (one of the perks of WWI Versailles Treaty; England had to sink its navy or turn them into merchant ships) have to ask America's assistance to thwart Hitler's idea of world domination in 1941. What world history books do you read; Hitler was the aggressor (had this idea of a racial cleansing project happening behind the scenes utilizing his private army; the SS). Albert Speer said himself in his biography; he was just the architect of the insane idea of a mammoth 'building project' (ran out of money) Hitler put him in charge of. This complex to be the one and ONLY (to out do ROME in its breathtaking monumentalizm); not the architect of the 'final solution' that was all Himmler. You should look up Speers architectural drawings of this city Hitler envisioned. "Hitler did not start WWII"; that is a priceless quote Jmdewey60.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If we are to believe the bible

Now why on Earth should any sensible person do that?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

jmdewey
And Hitler did not start WW II, that was the English, who decided to destroy Germany back during WW I.

Revisionist bollocks. Germany started both wars, for very well-known reasons.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If we are to believe the bible

Now why on Earth should any sensible person do that?

I am not necessarily talking about sensible people....

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Revisionist bollocks. Germany started both wars, for very well-known reasons.

See?

I thought you were going somewhere else with the thread title. Still a cool read though.

But think about that statement, "speak of the devil and the devil appears". I find it very curious it's a way of identifying syncronicity (law of attraction) when someone appears after just speaking of them, yet instead of acknowledging Jesus or something it's the devil instead.