Man's psychology, Church psychology, Divine psychology, and The Maddening Wine of Revelation

Let me introduce you to Tom.

Tom is a married man with 2 children who lives a moderate middle class life. He has been questioning his life recently and feels like something is missing. At work one of the receptionists has taken notice of him and began flirting. He likes the attention but wants to remain faithful to his wife. However, thoughts of this woman keep coming to him, even though he would prefer to stay faithful to his wife and children. He is struggling with sin and seeks help.

1. Man's psychology

Tom goes to a psychologist who encourages him to overcome these thoughts of adultery. The psychologist tells him to plan a family activity and a date night. These activities will help remind Tom of the love that he has with his family, and what he will loose if he acts on his sinful thoughts. Tom is encouraged by the advice and he sets out to overcome his sinful desire and stay faithful to his family.

2. Church psychology

Tom goes to the church and sits in to see if the message today can help him overcome his sinful desires.

The pastor teaches him that it is impossible to overcome sinful desires, and that sometimes sinful desires are so strong that he will loose freewill and is bound to sin. The pastor tells him that there is no way to overcome sin and that God will only love him if he believes what the pastor is saying is true, and he must get baptized in water else he will be condemned to hell.

Tom learns from the pastor that sometimes sinful thoughts are impossible to ignore. Thoughts of adultery keep entering his mind and he is helpless to overcome them. Based on the advice at church Tom gets baptized by the pastor who taught him that it is impossible for man to overcome sin. Later that year Tom commits adultery on his wife which results in a divorce and the destruction of his family.

3. Divine psychology

Tom speaks to the prophet who teaches divine psychology.

The prophet explains to Tom that God promised sinful thoughts would be a part of this creation. He explains to Tom that it will be impossible to stop all sinful thoughts because they come from Satan who has been given authority to send us these lies.

After explaining the origin of sin the prophet tells Tom that the Light within him can guide him to perfection. Tom learns that Jesus Christ, a man who was without sin, was the Light. He tells Tom that he can trust in the Light because Christ was tempted in the same ways Tom is being tempted now, but that the perfect Light within him overcame all sin.

Tom learns that sinful thoughts and desires must be overcome by listening to the Light within, else destruction will come to his life. The prophet explains to Tom that the more he obeys the Light the more joy will come to his life, and eventually he will enter into an unshakable communion with the Light known as Nirvana.

Once Tom reaches this state of complete enlightenment, the desires of sin will die. Although the sinful thoughts will still come, the desire to act on sin will die and Tom will be able to become like Christ, one who can overcome all sin.

4. Conclusion and the Maddening Wine

Man's psychology and Divine psychology agree on most points. Man's psychology makes no claim to where sinful thoughts come from, but does recognize some have these thoughts more than others. Man's psychology agrees that we must ignore or overcome these thoughts because our conscious is telling us not to do these things. Divine psychology says these lies are demons (sinful thoughts) that are part of the creation and will come from time to time. Divine psychology says that one can overcome all sinful thoughts because the one in them, the Holy Spirit, is greater than the one who is in the world (Satan).

Although divine psychology admits that sometimes in our ignorance we will commit sin, we are not bound to sin. The one who sins in ignorance repents and learns to overcome sin from their mistake. This does not justifying sin that you know is wrong, such as Tom's adultery, but rather justifies our ignorance and imperfection due to our ignorance. Tom's adultery is not acceptable because he knows what is on his mind is wrong and destructive. If Tom fails to overcome Satan (sinful thoughts) his punishment will be the destruction of his family.

Divine psychology states that the Conscious, the Love, the Light within you is perfect. Divine psychology is the belief that Love is the perfection in you and the Light is the voice that is guiding you towards perfection.

Verses the church doesn't understand but I have explained with divine psychology.

1 John 1
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness (continue to sin), we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light (overcome all sinful thoughts and desires), as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin (sinful thoughts that come to us), we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned (That we never stumbled even in ignorance), we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed (Light) remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1st John 3:2
We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

The churches doctrine of Original Sin is MADDENING WINE. According to the church it is impossible to overcome sin. The churches teaching bounds mankind to failure. The church teaches you that there is a war between Satan and Christ in your mind and that sometimes you loose your freewill ability to follow the Light. I ask all who stand at the alter “What sin is impossible for YOU to overcome what sin are YOU bound to?”

And now you can understand

Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit (Original Sin)you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit (Original Sin) you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will (to Overcome sin) of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (Those bound to sin)!’

What sin is impossible to overcome when Perfection Lives in you?

Great post. Jesus' first miracle is turning water into wine, this is symbolism for Jesus' miracles being a fabrication to induce the intoxication of Jesus' supposed sacrifice in my opinIon.

Why would someone substitute water for wine? Water is far healthier than wine. The only solution is that they wanted us to be intoxicated by the maddening wine spoken of in Revelation.

S&F

I have never heard any church preach crap like that, and I wouldn't stay with one that did.

Rather I have heard that it is impossible that we will live free of sin. Sin and temptation will always be with us. We should resist temptation, but we will inevitably fail at times. No one is perfect which is why we need to pray for strength and forgiveness.

You make it sound like church teaches that anytime you are tempted you might as well go ahead because it's gonna happen anyhow and that's crap.

Basically, any REAL pastor worth his salt is giving Tom the same advice as 1 and 3.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Rather I have heard that it is impossible that we will live free of sin. Sin and temptation will always be with us. We should resist temptation, but we will inevitably fail at times.

No one is perfect which is why we need to pray for strength and forgiveness.

You are saying the same thing that I claim the church teaches. "We should resist temptation, but we will inevitably fail at times"

If you know you are being tempted to do wrong Why is inevitable that you will fail? Surely a child might stumble on certain things, but why as an adult, who knows right from wrong, do you still believe you cannot resist all temptation?

By your own words you admit that you cannot overcome sin. The Holy Spirit is in you and you never have to fall to temptation. By your words Tom will stumble, maybe not adultery, but he will do what he knows is wrong at some time.

No one is born perfect, and no one is born knowing perfection, except Christ Jesus. That is why one must be born again, into the covenant of perfection, so that one may become perfect like Christ Jesus.

One who lives according to the Light can and will overcome all temptation. If you don't believe in your ability to overcome temptation, than you have yet to acknowledge that perfection lives in you.

Maybe you don't understand how destructive your belief that you will fail is, but it is only because you believe in failure that you will fail.

The Jews believe that after a boys 13th birthday that they can reason as an adult and become accountable to the Law. There are many Jews today that don't believe that a man is bound to failure. They believe that God commands us to obey the law and therefore we can overcome all sin.

It is the Roman Catholic Church of King Constantine that tells men that they will always remain imperfect and therefore are subject to the authority of the Church and the King.

Christ is the Kingdom, and anyone who understands the Kingdom of Christ will overcome sin and become like Christ.

You do not have to fail to temptation, ever. You only have to fail in ignorance, like a child who is learning. The one who knows the temptation is wrong will overcome through the power of the perfect Light within, if the obey the Light.

Your truth is skewed.

If tom wants GOD'S help then all he has to do is open his heart and begin communicating with GOD.

Simply ask GOD to remove the burden and strengthen his resistance to sin.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Your truth is skewed.
If tom wants GOD'S help then all he has to do is open his heart and begin communicating with GOD.
Simply ask GOD to remove the burden and strengthen his resistance to sin.

I agree with you, but what if Tom doesn't have the faith you have? Shouldn't someone guide him away from sin and towards perfection?

Or do you agree with the church? It is impossible to overcome sin, so do your best and be baptized, else risk everlasting hell?

What have I stated that is skewed?

perhaps complex is a better term than skewed

i often do take my faith for granted and often expect others to be able to see what i see

guiding someone away from sin is not always the best option.

guiding smeone toward faith and communication with GOD is always the best option

often evil can use our best efforts of steering away from sin as a spring board to dive into sin.

honesty is that we hold a stone in our hands and GOD holds the whole world in his.

the church and the doctor are both capable of pointing us to higher power but often neither do

a reply to: sacgamer25

No.

You can resist temptation if you recognize it, but there are times when you do something and later realize that you did something you shouldn't have.

No one is free of that.

If Tom knows he is attracted to his secretary, he is aware of the temptation to sleep with her, and he should be able to understand all the possible repercussions of that act. That is not the same as me getting short-tempered with someone one day and realizing later that I was intemperate in my dealings with them and wronged them as a result (failing to love my neighbor). Or all those times as a teenager I spouted off at my parents ...

It's a minor sin in the grand scheme of things maybe, but it's there. And I can't know how my attitude might have injured that other person because I don't live that person's life. So my minor sin might have had bigger repercussions for him or her.

That is what I mean about sometimes you fail. I'm not talking about sometimes you get attracted to your secretary and just can't help it. That's crap.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Number 2. is right. Being tempted is sinning, not just acting out the temptation. And it is temptation that we can never fully overcome, because of our flesh.

In your analogy, Tom is already sinning by being tempted.

Matthew 5:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: sacgamer25

Number 2. is right. Being tempted is sinning, not just acting out the temptation. And it is temptation that we can never fully overcome, because of our flesh.

In your analogy, Tom is already sinning by being tempted.

Matthew 5:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Being tempted is unavoidable, temptation is Satan, the liar who tells you that sin does not lead to death.

To see a woman in a bikini and notice that she is sexually attractive is temptation, which is not sin. To stare and contemplate what you might want to do about the attraction is sin.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin.

My eyes (flesh) see what they see. The lie(temptation) sexual attraction comes from Satan. I have freewill, I can look away or simply let go of the thought because I realize that their is no point in going down the road of adultery. Everyone will be tempted, but no one has to sin.

a reply to: ketsuko
What sin is unavoidable? Let me tell you a story to explain the difference between temptation that leads to sin, and the type of sin that is unavoidable.

When you are tempted by Satan as a child you may not understand the 10 commandments enough to understand what is acceptable or not. But as an adult, you should be able to reason the price of acting on temptation that stands against the commandments and thus avoid sin.

Let me explain with a story.

I have two Russian friends. The older has been in USA for a while and his younger brother just came here a week ago. The young brother learned English from watching TV, Movies and listening to American music, mostly hip hop.

One day when we are walking down the street a group of young black males were sitting around listening to hip hop. The younger brother who just arrived in America walks up to the group of black males and he says what's up (N Word).

The group of young black males gets irritated and my friend has no idea what he did to upset them.

His older brother tells the young black men that his brother just arrived in America and didn't mean any harm. He then looks to his brother and says if a Russian calls you a Commie Pig you laugh, but if an American calls you a commie pig you will get irritated. In America the (N Word) is used jokingly or brotherly amongst African Americans but we are not allowed to say that word without upsetting others.

The younger brother, who now understands what he has done wrong, goes back over to the group of black men and apologizes (repents). The group forgives him for his ignorance and everyone laughs about the misunderstanding.

For the young Russian this sin was unavoidable. Now that he understands what he has done wrong he will no longer stumble in this way.

A child might not understand temptation but as adults, the Jews consider this age 13, we have the mind to reason right from wrong. The one who follows the Light within will not act on his temptations, but he may say something that offends others, because he has never understood the one he is talking too.

Temptation leads us to violate the 10 commandments, stupidity may cause us to violate the law that requires us to love our brothers as our self.

Shouldn't adults learn to understand the temptations that lead to violating the 10 commandments and overcome them?

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is PERFECT.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been PERFECTED in love.

Romans 12:1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and PERFECT.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be PERFECT, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

James 1:25 But the one who looks into the PERFECT law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

James 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a PERFECT man, able also to bridle his whole body.

Proverbs 11:5 The righteousness of the blameless (PERFECT) keeps his way straight, but the wicked falls by his own wickedness.

Deuteronomy 18:13 You shall be blameless (PERFECT) before the Lord your God,

James 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be PERFECT and complete, lacking in nothing.

Temptation is not sin. One who overcomes all temptation and speaks no evil is a PERFECT man according to James. Who is God's friend? Who does God listen too?

John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will (To obey the PERFECT light within and overcome all temptation), God listens to him.

Their are others who believe in perfection. clarion-call.org...

originally posted by: deadeyedick
perhaps complex is a better term than skewed

guiding smeone toward faith and communication with GOD is always the best option
often evil can use our best efforts of steering away from sin as a spring board to dive into sin.

How can you teach someone to communicate with the Holy Spirit without explaining the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is perfection. Perfection lives in you, this is why you can also become perfect.

Evil has no power, Evil is only lies. The power lies in your freewill to choose between truth and lies. How can steering someone away from Sin give Satan a power that God did not give him?

a reply to: sacgamer25

Draw me a picture.

Where, in the following example, would you place temptation and sin?

[see woman] [see her beauty / attractiveness] [see your urge / temptation] [enact your temptation]

Temptation = underlined
Sin = italicized


I would draw it here:

[see woman] [see her beauty/attractiveness] [see your urge / temptation] [enact your temptation]

or maybe even here:

[see woman] [see her beauty/attractiveness] [see your urge / temptation] [enact your temptation]

If you want to rearrange or make additions to the example, feel free to.


I think that if you are troubled by temptations, you have almost assuredly been tempted already, and have therefore, sinned.

I think most people see temptation in themselves after succumbing to temptation, similar to the way you see yourself being angry, instead of seeing a problem as one that could anger you (the problem is temptation). The difference being a detached / 3rd party-esque perspective like watching someone else become frustrated, and seeing that the problem is what is causing their anger.

And if Jesus was tempted, I think it is in that way - that he faced problematic situations, but he did not feel or succumb to the temptations - he was not tempted as in the way we think of temptation.

Think about when you look at woman, or when you look at a tree. Is it possible to not feel anything when you look at the woman, just as when you look at the tree? Is it possible to look at a woman and just see a person? Yes, especially so if you are in love with another. And for that reason, I think of temptation as the feeling of temptation, and it, is sin. I mean, we cannot rightly say that women are tempting or that problems are tempting, and so we need to rightly divide the object from our perspective/feelings/desires of it, and it is our perspective/feelings that are problematic and sinful.

Likely we need to settle the useage of temptation / tempted, too. It's right to say Jesus was tempted, in the sense that Satan did offer him things to tempt him, but in the sense that Jesus felt or did succumb to temptation / he became tempted, is wrong.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

You have tried to explain a simple process using very complex terms, that don't agree with what the scripture says.

Why not just believe that we can actually become perfect Like Christ? He was tempted in exactly the same ways we are according to scripture. He overcame and so can we. We are not born perfect like Christ but we can be made perfect by him.

a reply to: sacgamer25

It is more likely that I have simplified it enough for you to be able to see your mistake and you just do not want to admit it.

And I would ask you to show me how I am wrong, but that is pointless, as I know I am right.

I mean, what you're saying goes against the very foundation of Christianity, and against the purpose of Jesus being sent to us, and against Jesus' sacrifice for us, and against what Jesus himself was teaching, and against who Jesus is.

We simply cannot become justified in the flesh. The law which was meant to keep us from sin, bound us to it because of the weakness of our flesh / the spirit of man. Only by Jesus being unjustly killed, because his spirit was justified and so his flesh was without sin, was the law fulfilled, and sin condemned. And only by being justified in the spirit, by having his spirit within us, are we able to be justified ourselves, in the spirit, like him. We cannot be justified in the flesh, and we must live by the spirit, as we were always meant to live.

The misunderstanding is in what you think temptation is and what you know of the spirituality of Christianity...

We are meant to be blameless, and I am not talking about in deeds, but in our very spirits. Don't try to do acts of love, be love. Don't try to refrain from sin, be blameless. Be holy - be a child of God. Don't live by the literal letter of the law, understand the spirit, and live by the Spirit.

Maybe read this, it says pretty much the same thing that I made "complex": www.answering-islam.org...

a reply to: Bleeeeep

You said you must live by the Spirit and the Spirit is perfect, but you still don't believe it is possible to live according to perfection. If you are not living according to perfection than you still don't understand circumcision. The cutting away of one's flesh so that they may purse the Spirit down the path of Perfection.

You cannot follow a Perfect Spirit, unless you accept that their IS A PATH TO PERFECTION.

To live by the Spirit is to overcome all Sin.

I have already had good friends of mine claim that I was possessed by Satan because I believe that Christ's Sacrifice on the cross forgives us for our previous sins, so that we may join him in perfection, and become LIKE HIM and SIN NO MORE.

2 Peter 1:9 But whoever does not have them (the attributes of brotherly love) is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST SINS.

Peter is teaching that you have been cleansed of your past sins so that you do not need to feel guilty in the presence of God. This is the sacrifice on the cross, the forgiveness of sins that leads to the perfect path of overcoming sins.

You believe you will always be a failure. I believe I will become perfect. Who is following the Perfect Holy Spirit, the one who was without sin, Christ Jesus?

You follow maddening wine of imperfection, binding yourself to sin. What is bound on earth will be bound in heaven. Since you are bound to sin, and sin is darkness, you prove that you are not bound to heaven, which is Perfect Light.

You believe in men who stand at the Alter and collect a tithe for their teaching. They tell you that you need them, because you are fallen and they were called to be superior to you. How can a man who believes that he can never become Perfect tell you how to follow the one who was and is Perfect?

The Levites were doctors, Judges, and Priests and they collected 10%. The men who claim to be Levites today only preach but yet they claim the same right to your 10% as the ones who were also doctors, and Judges. By their teaching they should only receive 3.3% and the rest should go to the doctors and judges.

I am telling you that the Perfect Holy Spirit lives in you. Once you believe in the Perfect Holy Spirit then you don't need me anymore. It would be hard to start a religion that pays me weekly when I have told you that you don't need me. You can believe in sinners who ask for your money or you can believe in Perfection.

At the church you find men who use the cross and ritual to justify sin, never letting you escape your fallen state. Within you find the Perfect Holy Spirit that can circumcise your flesh from your mind so that your mind is focused only on the Light. In the Light their is no darkness, sin. It is possible to find Nirvana (Perfection) within you.

In answering Islam they fail to understand that Christ is the Lord and not the Father. Since Christ is the Lord and Yahweh is the Lord, and their is only one Lord who is Lord over all, Yahweh is Christ. Yahweh is tempted by man but the father is not. No one can tempt the father because the father does not listen to sinners. But Christ does listen and he does intercede on our behalf. And he was tempted in exactly the same way we are but was without sin.

I am sorry that you were taught a trinity that says Jesus is God, even though he never claimed to be God. Yahweh who is Christ was tempted but without sin. But the father who does not listen to sinners never even hears the darkness. The only way to the father is by being refined in the fire by the Light, so that you may be presented, Holy, and Blameless (Perfect) in God's site. Then God will listen to you.