HHO Truth

True or false 4.43liters hho per min=1hp/min

a reply to: Bedlam

This, basically.

This website seems to enjoy the narrative of the independent fringe inventor with no background in science and engineering coming up with an outside the box solution that the stuffy science boffins with all the fancy letters after their names couldn't figure out but when a lack of competency at the most basic level is displayed it's not exactly a bad bet that it is but the tip of the iceberg. Would an amateur surgeon who mistakenly thinks the heart is located in the stomach fill you with confidence? Probably not.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
for my benefit could you point me to where you come up with that info.

That would be a physics or chemistry book. Find out - what are these bonds based on?

right off the bat that statment is false because something as simple as tempature has effects on the amount of current needed to perform electrolsis. i think you are a bit programmed in your reasoning but i leave the option open of me being wrong about that.

Find out - what affects the impedance of a material? Is temperature a variable? How have you measured (accurately...)the current vs the electrolysis rate? That's not straightforward. eta - it's true that your electrolysis cell will draw more current as it heats, but that's the impedance dropping. Also, you will see the same when you add in an electrolyte, you'll draw more current because you've got more free ions to move around, not because hydrogen bonds are weakening in some way.

let's discuss the watts per min measurement i tried to use and you reject the whole op even though the op proved correct besides a misunderstanding in what i am saying.

would you still be butt hurt if i put the word continous in front of watts per minute? can you now phathom my meaning.

I'm not "butt hurt" at all. Watts/min is not a unit. It's like you came up with wedding cakes per gravy or something. The misunderstanding is between you, energy, power, and units. Units are real things. You don't get to invent them on the fly, at least not and have them apply to physical things.

i think the other aspect is that i took the btu figures and divided by 60 and called it btu/min

That actually ends up being power. If you meant it that way, then it would be appropriate. Energy/time = power. Power divided by time is nonsense.

a reply to: Bedlam

watts/min is a unit that can be measured just as kwh is a unit

it is funny because you said before about me not knowing basic algebra

1 liter of hho is equal to about 4-5 watt hrs i suppose that is somewhere around 18000 joules

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Is it true or false that a 5hp engine will take an amount of fuel that is at least equal to 5 hp?

Wow, that's a badly posed question on several levels. Again, scrambling power and energy as if they were the same. You've got to get that untangled conceptually.

A more legible way of putting what I think you're asking would be "Is it true or false that an internal combustion engine whilst delivering a continuous output of 5HP over a period of time, will require no less than that amount of energy in fuel intake", which would be true, because that's basic thermodynamics. That's the least amount of fuel it COULD take, although in practice it would require more.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Is it true or false that an engine can run on gas vapor at a 14 to 1 oxygen to gas ratio?

If by "gas" you mean gasoline, and by 14:1, you mean air to gasoline ratio by mass. It wouldn't be correct for gasoline if you're talking oxygen instead of air.

It's not correct for hydrogen, though, which is more like 34:1 for air.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
True or false 4.43liters hho per min=1hp/min

Not commenting on the accuracy of the figures, but if you were to rephrase that as "The energy of combustion of 4.43 liters of HHO is 1 HP-min" would at least have the right units.

Hp is power, power x time = energy. So it's not HP/min, which is another one of your power per time bogus units, but HP-min, an odd but at least dimensionally correct statement. Not that I'm sure of your figures, mind you.

As is, you're sort of deriving a power number and equating it to a weird unit.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Bedlam

watts/min is a unit that can be measured just as kwh is a unit

No, no it can't. kWh IS a unit, and it's a unit of energy. You may note (or not) that in this case you are multiplying kW by time, not dividing it.

it is funny because you said before about me not knowing basic algebra

My opinion is unchanged. There is a qualitative difference between kW * h and kW/h.

a reply to: deadeyedick

watts/min is a unit that can be measured just as kwh is a unit

Watt: defined as joule per second. (J/s)

Watt/min: undefined and unused. Equivalent to J/(s*60*s) similar to J/s^2. What is it? The rate of change of power?

kWh: A bastardized unit of energy frequently used by power distribution co. If power is J/s then power*time give (J/s)*s simplify to Joule (obviously I transformed hr to second and kW to W to simplify the exemple).

If you don't understand this simple dimensional analysis, then all hope is lost ...

a reply to: PeterMcFly

ok
perhaps we will get there.lets look at one of my figures here and tell me the correct answer

3.658 kw/h to seperate 1liter of water
219.48 kw/m
219480 w/m
1840 liters of browns gas per liter of water
119.282 w/m per liter browns gas
1 horsepower is equivalent to 746 watts continous
1hp=6.254 lpm

i am interested in mistakes i have made but to accurately say i am wrong you will have to show the correct answer of hp=lpm

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: deadeyedick

Is it true or false that an engine can run on gas vapor at a 14 to 1 oxygen to gas ratio?

If by "gas" you mean gasoline, and by 14:1, you mean air to gasoline ratio by mass. It wouldn't be correct for gasoline if you're talking oxygen instead of air.



It's not correct for hydrogen, though, which is more like 34:1 for air.

that is correct i did say oxygen and i ment to say air.

back to the intent of the question. is the ratio of 14:1 unleaded to air the correct ratio for an ice?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
back to the intent of the question. is the ratio of 14:1 unleaded to air the correct ratio for an ice?

For gasoline at room temp, it's close. Mass to mass.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

3.658 kw/h to seperate 1liter of water : nothing is kw/h
219.48 kw/m : nothing is kw/m
219480 w/m : nothing is w/m

1840 liters of browns gas per liter of water : at least the units are consistent here, don't know about the figures
119.282 w/m per liter browns gas : nothing is w/m
1 horsepower is equivalent to 746 watts continous : "continuous" is meaningless here. 1HP = 746 Watts, because both are power
1hp=6.254 lpm : power is liters per minute?

i am interested in mistakes i have made but to accurately say i am wrong you will have to show the correct answer of hp=lpm

You're wrong. You have one statement that makes sense, and you stuck 'continuous' on it for no reason.

The first thing, padawan, is to understand why power is not energy. What is power? What is energy? Why are they different, although they seem alike?

a reply to: Bedlam

again you can claim i am wrong but not be able to formulate an answer as to how much browns gas can be produced using one hp.



1hp/min=6.254 lpm

focus on that final answer cause i see that my methods are beyond your comprehnsion due to formal training you have recieved and that i have not recieved

1hp of continous power can produce a certain amount of browns gas in a minute and i have concluded that the answer is 6.254 liters per minute can be produced.

Let's see if we can untangle some of this...

3.658 kWh of energy is required to separate 1 L of water at STP into H2 and O2, at 100% efficiency, which you will never see. Forget HHO or Brown's gas, it's a smoke screen to distract you from the reality that it's just plain ol' H2 and O2 you're burning, and nothing else.

Note that it's kWh, not kW/h. You'd have to apply 3.66 kW for an hour. That multiplies, not divides. Writing the units kW/h is an error, and it keeps you from realizing what you end up with as an answer both conceptually and also if you do dimensional analysis to see if your answers make sense.

I'm not sure why you want to swap to kWm for a unit. So let's not.

Next, how many liters of mixed H2/O2 do you get from electrolyzing a liter of water? I don't have a good calculator here at the homestead, but using this crappy windows calculator and scaling in my head, you're going to get about 55 moles of H2 and 28 moles of O2 per liter. That works out to a bit over 2000 liters of gas per liter of water, unless I slipped a decimal place.

When you burn it, you'll get back about the same amount of power you had to put in at 100% efficiency (which you will never see), right at 237 kJ/mole of H2O2 mix. Or, looked at another way, about 1.8 WH/liter (found my previous error! I did it in my head and flipped the term), so to get 1 HP output from your theoretically 100% efficient internal combustion engine for an hour, you will have to burn about 415 liters of oxyhydrogen.

Note that I don't try calculating to the last digit when I'm meatballing, you have so many unpredictable losses here they will swamp out any small errors. But it's within a few digits.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Bedlam

again you can claim i am wrong but not be able to formulate an answer as to how much browns gas can be produced using one hp.

Again you aren't asking the question in any way that can be answered. It's sort of like how far is it from New York to Boston in days.

a reply to: Bedlam

bs

1 horse power is = to 33,000 foot pounds per minute=746 watts continous
3.658 kwh to seperate 1 liter of water

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Bedlam

focus on that final answer cause i see that my methods are beyond your comprehnsion due to formal training you have recieved and that i have not recieved

Your methods are f'ng incorrect, not so advanced they can't be comprehended.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Bedlam

bs

1 horse power is = to 33,000 foot pounds per minute=746 watts continous
3.658 kwh to seperate 1 liter of water

1 HP is power, not energy. Watts are power, not energy.

kWh is energy. But HP is not, nor is HP/time.

a reply to: deadeyedick

focus on that final answer cause i see that my methods are beyond your comprehnsion due to formal training you have recieved and that i have not recieved

This is some Gene Ray-esque TImecube-type rationalization right here...