It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

I am proud to be a Christian Fundamentalist.

page: 9
19
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 06:55 PM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine


Actually, there's no contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) that Jesus ever lived or said anything. The Bible was written by men and the words attributed to Jesus were written by men who didn't even live when Jesus allegedly lived and could not possibly have heard him say anything. This is like arguing that Frodo died a Gandalf follower or not.

We are in the theological realm as of this discussion and not proof of the many libraries of literary evidence that Jesus did live and did die. There is far more literary evidence of Jesus' life than other leading ancients who are taught in most US universities. To deny this is like putting ones head in the sand hoping to see light.

Plato has 7 manuscripts -- Herodotus has 8 manuscripts -- Homer has 643 manuscripts - Aristotle has 49 manuscripts --
The New Testament has 5,600 manuscripts and the list can go on and on - To deny literary evidence of Jesus would also be to deny all literary of all ancients.
Source to read is -- carm.org...[/url]




posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 10:55 PM
link   

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Tangerine


Actually, there's no contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) that Jesus ever lived or said anything. The Bible was written by men and the words attributed to Jesus were written by men who didn't even live when Jesus allegedly lived and could not possibly have heard him say anything. This is like arguing that Frodo died a Gandalf follower or not.

We are in the theological realm as of this discussion and not proof of the many libraries of literary evidence that Jesus did live and did die. There is far more literary evidence of Jesus' life than other leading ancients who are taught in most US universities. To deny this is like putting ones head in the sand hoping to see light.

Plato has 7 manuscripts -- Herodotus has 8 manuscripts -- Homer has 643 manuscripts - Aristotle has 49 manuscripts --
The New Testament has 5,600 manuscripts and the list can go on and on - To deny literary evidence of Jesus would also be to deny all literary of all ancients.
Source to read is -- carm.org...[/url]


Literary evidence? LOL. Like literary evidence that Harry Potter lived? There is no historical evidence that Jesus ever lived. I didn't address whether a character named Jesus existed in fiction. We could also discuss the exploits of Zeus.



posted on Jan, 16 2015 @ 09:36 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine


TextLiterary evidence? LOL. Like literary evidence that Harry Potter lived? There is no historical evidence that Jesus ever lived. I didn't address whether a character named Jesus existed in fiction. We could also discuss the exploits of Zeus.

We have had this discussion several times in the past with nothing accomplished except your own frustration. I cannot understand why you continue to read threads that are written by Christian twits when you are so frustrated with the thought that Jesus is the Christ of mankind. We twits live as twits and most will die as twits. It's all in the theology thing don't you know?

The rabbi Saul who wrote some thirteen letters to various institutions has been thoroughly studied by many scholars and found to be an authentic existing Jewish rabbi in the Sanhedrin of the first half of the first century. Within those letters, which have been penned as Paul, he has repeatedly verified the existence of the Christian Jesus. Now whether you want to accept this as literary evidence is your prerogative but there are a great number who do accept this as literary evidence that the Christian Jesus did live and did die.



posted on Jan, 16 2015 @ 04:30 PM
link   

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: flammadraco


But...... Jesus died a Jew not Christian and as such he only ever spoke about and preached about the Jewish God.

Yes you are correct. Jesus did die as a Jewish nationalist but His doctrine was not the same as rabbinic Judaism. His entire doctrine is like night and day in comparison to rabbinic Judaism. The only connection He had with national Judaism was Abraham. Now that is not to say that He was not in agreement with Moses and the prophets of the Hebrews but they were not rabbinic Judaism. After His death is when the movement began to take root and become known as Christians. So in that respect you are correct.


So....... If Jesus was preaching about the Jewish God then why do Christains say that only their God is the true God when in fact the bible only speaks of the same God as the Jews. In fact is not the only difference between Jews and Christians the believe that whilst Jews believe Jesus existed they never believed he was the Messiah where as Christians are really Jews who believed that Jesus was the messiah?

Certainly the rabbinic Jews believed that the flesh of Jesus existed but they did not believe that He was the celestial image of their God. To believe that He was the celestial image called The Word would be the same as saying that He was God. There is the entire problem. They also did not and still do not believe that Satan is evil. They do not believe t6hat angels can sin or have ever sinned. Their doctrine is absolutely far removed from the doctrine of Jesus. It's like saying that you believe in heaven but do not believe in hell. Both are taught side by side with the same marriage.

When a Christian says that their God is the true God they are saying that Jesus was God in heaven known as The Word before he came to this world. As Jesus told the people that to see God is to see Him is the problem for other religions to believe. Christians are any ones who believe that Jesus was and is now God.


One big problem with Fundamental Christianity in general is that it makes very extreme claims, especially the one about all non-Christians who don’t believe in its gospel will spend an eternity in hell in everlasting torment. How very Christian to condemn 5 billion people to hell!

According to the doctrine of Christ Jesus a true Christian does not spout or condemn anyone to hell of eternal punishment. There are many many people who are grouped into the category of Christianity who should not be in that category. All judgment is of God in true Christianity and not judgments of people. In true Christian theology Jesus never condemns anyone before their death. People condemn themselves by their own choice. All judgments are on each individual according to their deeds in the flesh. There are probably hundreds of church doctrines out there that are not the doctrine of Jesus.


To go around proclaiming such a thing to others, threatening them with a literal eternal neverending state of torment is perhaps the most extreme claim in the world. The problem is that they expect rational intelligent sane people to believe such extreme claims just because they point to some verses in the Bible that say so, which is absurd to 5 billion fellow humans except them!

I totally agree with you on that point. I have never understood hell as being a permanent punishment of torment. The Apostle John does not teach that in any form. Hell will be destroyed according to the Apostle John.
My best to you--


Are you kids serious … ? This all amounts to whether Batman could win against Superman in a pissing contest.



posted on Jan, 16 2015 @ 07:52 PM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine




Literary evidence? LOL. Like literary evidence that Harry Potter lived? There is no historical evidence that Jesus ever lived. I didn't address whether a character named Jesus existed in fiction. We could also discuss the exploits of Zeus.


"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

2 Peter 1:16

Likewise, James and Jude were His half-brothers. John and Matthew were His disciples. All wrote about Him in the 1st century A.D as eye-witnesses.



edit on 16-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2015 @ 11:19 PM
link   

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Tangerine


TextLiterary evidence? LOL. Like literary evidence that Harry Potter lived? There is no historical evidence that Jesus ever lived. I didn't address whether a character named Jesus existed in fiction. We could also discuss the exploits of Zeus.

We have had this discussion several times in the past with nothing accomplished except your own frustration. I cannot understand why you continue to read threads that are written by Christian twits when you are so frustrated with the thought that Jesus is the Christ of mankind. We twits live as twits and most will die as twits. It's all in the theology thing don't you know?

The rabbi Saul who wrote some thirteen letters to various institutions has been thoroughly studied by many scholars and found to be an authentic existing Jewish rabbi in the Sanhedrin of the first half of the first century. Within those letters, which have been penned as Paul, he has repeatedly verified the existence of the Christian Jesus. Now whether you want to accept this as literary evidence is your prerogative but there are a great number who do accept this as literary evidence that the Christian Jesus did live and did die.


I'm not frustrated. I think it's hilarious. Paul never claimed to have witnessed Jesus living. Paul's existence in no way proves that Jesus actually lived. But you already know this. You simply choose to believe which is find but belief is not fact. This raises the question of why belief, alone, isn't enough for you. It's a rhetorical question.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 08:56 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine




Paul never claimed to have witnessed Jesus living.


Paul would have been present at the trial of Jesus at the Sanhedrin. His rabbi was Gamaliel, the head of the Sanhedrin.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 09:22 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine


I'm not frustrated. I think it's hilarious. Paul never claimed to have witnessed Jesus living. Paul's existence in no way proves that Jesus actually lived. But you already know this. You simply choose to believe which is find but belief is not fact. This raises the question of why belief, alone, isn't enough for you. It's a rhetorical question.

You have never witnessed Pontius Pilate (26-36 CE) living but historical evidence tells you that he did live. Your logic is as faulty as your lack of unbiased study. Read the history of the first Christian Synagogue and you might actually realize that you are mistaken.

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
Source - www.gotquestions.org...

Quite frankly you have no idea of what history is. Because Jesus lived is not to say that a historian will believe that He was deity but a true historian will record an honest event. Apparently you have the insight to judge history, or so you would like others to believe. You are mistaken.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 09:50 AM
link   
a reply to: AllIsOne


And who won kid?



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 04:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Tangerine




Paul never claimed to have witnessed Jesus living.


Paul would have been present at the trial of Jesus at the Sanhedrin. His rabbi was Gamaliel, the head of the Sanhedrin.



Prove it. Cite contemporaneous documentation proving that such a trial occurred. Or, you could just save us time by admitting that it's simply your belief.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 04:47 PM
link   
a reply to: Seede

I suggest you start by looking up when Josephus, Flavius, etc. lived and then doing the simple math that proves that they did not live with Jesus allegedly lived and, thus, could not possibly have witnessed Jesus living. Therefore, they can not provide contemporaneous documentation of his existence.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 07:43 PM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine


I suggest you start by looking up when Josephus, Flavius, etc. lived and then doing the simple math that proves that they did not live with Jesus allegedly lived and, thus, could not possibly have witnessed Jesus living. Therefore, they can not provide contemporaneous documentation of his existence.

contemporaneous
(kənˌtɛmpəˈreɪnɪəs)
adj
1. existing, beginning, or occurring in the same period of time

John the Apostle (Aramaic: ܝܘܚܢܢ ܫܠܝܚܐ‎ Yohanan Shliha; Hebrew: יוחנן בן זבדי‎ Yohanan Ben Zavdai c. AD 6 – c. 100) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus

Flavius Josephus (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/;[1] 37 – c. 100),[2] born Joseph ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu),

The historian Josephus Lived not only during the life of John but the lives of all of the Apostles and hundreds of the disciples of Jesus and not to forget his friend the Emperor Vespasian and his son Titus, serving as his translator. I do not understand your suicidal hatred for truth. Flavius Josephus was a qualified genuine historian who lived with many who walked with Jesus and had access to the best libraries in the Roman world. He is qualified not only as a historian but also first hand knowledge from those who sat under Jesus in His ministry.

But even at these extraordinary qualifications of Josephus, it is not required of a good historian to have lived and commingled with the subject he or she writes. That is not only unusual but silly. A good historian gathers from other sources and perhaps many sources of a subject. You still do not understand.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 07:47 PM
link   

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Tangerine


I suggest you start by looking up when Josephus, Flavius, etc. lived and then doing the simple math that proves that they did not live with Jesus allegedly lived and, thus, could not possibly have witnessed Jesus living. Therefore, they can not provide contemporaneous documentation of his existence.

contemporaneous
(kənˌtɛmpəˈreɪnɪəs)
adj
1. existing, beginning, or occurring in the same period of time

John the Apostle (Aramaic: ܝܘܚܢܢ ܫܠܝܚܐ‎ Yohanan Shliha; Hebrew: יוחנן בן זבדי‎ Yohanan Ben Zavdai c. AD 6 – c. 100) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus

Flavius Josephus (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/;[1] 37 – c. 100),[2] born Joseph ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu),

The historian Josephus Lived not only during the life of John but the lives of all of the Apostles and hundreds of the disciples of Jesus and not to forget his friend the Emperor Vespasian and his son Titus, serving as his translator. I do not understand your suicidal hatred for truth. Flavius Josephus was a qualified genuine historian who lived with many who walked with Jesus and had access to the best libraries in the Roman world. He is qualified not only as a historian but also first hand knowledge from those who sat under Jesus in His ministry.

But even at these extraordinary qualifications of Josephus, it is not required of a good historian to have lived and commingled with the subject he or she writes. That is not only unusual but silly. A good historian gathers from other sources and perhaps many sources of a subject. You still do not understand.


The topic was Jesus not John. I live during the time of Obama. That does not prove that Rumplestiltskin lived.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 06:16 AM
link   
a reply to: Seede

Why do you even bother? Earlier he didn't even care that Jesus' half-brothers James and Jude wrote about Him.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 06:19 AM
link   

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Tangerine




Paul never claimed to have witnessed Jesus living.


Paul would have been present at the trial of Jesus at the Sanhedrin. His rabbi was Gamaliel, the head of the Sanhedrin.



Prove it. Cite contemporaneous documentation proving that such a trial occurred. Or, you could just save us time by admitting that it's simply your belief.


It's the most written about trial in human history, about the most documented death ever recorded by man. In 32 AD Gamaliel was the head of the Sanhedrin. And Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 07:43 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

That doesn't show that Paul would have been there... In fact if he had been there, he probably would have mentioned it in at least one of his letters... Plus just because Pauls teacher was the head of the Sanhedrin does not mean Paul was part of it either... also something he would have mentioned... Considering he did mention being a Pharisee... that would have also been part of his "confessions", but neither of these issues were ever mentioned

Its nothing but speculation that Paul was at his trial... In fact, he never met Jesus...

But, unlike what tangerine is trying to say.... paul is the best witness to Jesus' life...

Which I mentioned on Page 1 of the "Reliable historical accounts of Jesus" thread...




posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 07:49 AM
link   
a reply to: Akragon




That doesn't show that Paul would have been there...


It's more than logical to assume considering the typical rabbi/disciple relationship in the first century. The disciple followed the rabbi everywhere, they ate when they ate, slept when they slept, and followed them around 24/7. No different than Jesus (the Rabbi) and his disciples.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 07:52 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Nah it would be quite different... When the Sanhedrin were called away at a meeting such as this to decide a mans fate, it would be safer to assume that only those that were a part of the group be called away... not the group and their followers... Jesus wasn't a part of any group that made decisions such as the Sanhedrin...

Like when the board of directors of a company has a meeting, they don't call he associates as well...

Just the board is present



edit on 18-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 07:55 AM
link   

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Nah it would be quite different... When the Sanhedrin were called away at a meeting such as this to decide a mans fate, it would be safer to assume that only those that were a part of the group be called away... not the group and their followers... Jesus wasn't a part of any group that made decisions such as the Sanhedrin...

Like when the board of directors of a company has a meeting, they don't call he associates as well...

Just the board is present




You can't compare the corporate world of today to the rabbi/talmidim relationship of the 1st century in Israel. In that time the advanced students followed their rabbi everywhere. When he awoke he woke up his talmidim (disciples) and they followed. That's just what it is.

Here this will help


edit on 18-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 07:59 AM
link   
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Regardless... IF Paul had been an actual witness to his Christ... there is no doubt that it would have been mentioned...

that is the bottom line... Even though Paul spoke out about Bragging, he did it quite a lot...

And even in the quote where he did speak against it, he did say that bragging about Christ was all good...

You're just adding speculated evidence to a case that doesn't need any...

Its pretty obvious that Jesus was a person from history... there will always be doubters




new topics

top topics



 
19
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join