I am proud to be a Christian Fundamentalist.

a reply to: Seede

I didn't think you would offer an apology but I didn't expect you to double down with the claim that I hate certain groups. Can I play that? Lets see.

It is quite obvious you hate muslims even though they branch from the same roots of your religion(abrahamic religion) and your attempts to distance Hitler from being a Christian where the whole conversation started because of the despicable attempts of those trying to paint him as an atheist started it.

This shows your true intent and foul nature or at least the mental gymnastics you will delude yourself with because of a false narrative many have the being a xtain means being a good person.

As we know Hitler was not a good person those of the Church are not always good people even today we know that wth the rampant pedofilia regardless they are christian same as Hitler. Good people they are not but xtain they are.



Keep denying the evidence like a good xtain soldier it changes nothing.

a reply to: Seede

Very well written and guided by the Holy Spirit.

Look at those who twist the words of Christ for they do not know any better for the Holy Spirit is NOT with them.

Bless you.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Being Christian, according to Christianity itself, is much much more than simply calling oneself a christian..

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Being Christian, according to Christianity itself, is much much more than simply calling oneself a christian..

To bad you guys could never agree on what it is to be a xtain going all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. Doing so would have saved a lot of xtain's from being killed. From the very beginning you guys killed each other of as much if not more so than the Romans and any other group combined.

It has been over 2,000 years don't you think it is about time for you all to have a meeting to settle exactly what it is to be xtain?

a reply to: windword

Are you claiming that millions of, so called, Christians who believed in the doctrine of "A Just War" presented by St Augustine, and the Papal decree of the Doctrine of Discovery, that motivated the likes of Christopher Columbus, for example, were NOT Christians? Get out of town!

You ask me a question and condemn me in the very same breath with no idea of what I believe.

Simply because millions of people follow a man made doctrine does not make that a doctrine of Christ Jesus. One can be a Christian and be mistaken and be forgiven for that mistake, but one cannot die in that practiced sin and be forgiven from that sin. Jesus advocated no murder or cause of murder. If that conflicts with any other doctrine of mankind then that doctrine of man cannot be of God. Because a person is forced to observe that doctrine is not to say that one is willfully in sin. Grace abounds for all. Some will sin in knowledge and some will sin in ignorance but all can repent and live forever.

My past posts of this thread were centered on Hitler and I stand by what I said. I have read some of Augustine in the past but have no interest in the Roman Catholic church or their ideologies. My theological education was from the first century rabbinical Christian teachings and do not embrace the Roman Christian teachings. You would have to find a Roman Catholic to bolster your ideology as I am not privy to those beliefs.

From what I have said I have made it clear that murder or cause of murder is not of Christ Jesus. I have never implied that self defense of family or person was murder. The difference between murder and preservation from harm is very clear in the Hebrew bible as well as the Greek bible. Murder also extends to needless killing of any life and is judged by God as murder.

Are wars needful for preservation? At times one could believe they are needful but only by ungodly leaders are they needful. If all people had Christ Jesus then wars would never be needful but all people are not within the grace of Christ Jesus and therefore wars will be the accepted solutions by the ungodly. Augustine at one time in his life was as ungodly as any of the ungodly could be so it is not how you start in life but how you finish in life. How did he finish his life? Did Augustine incite war? Did he delight in death and destruction? Did he teach murder or advocate murder to people? If not then he probably was in the grace of Christ Jesus. Augustine judged himself by the fruit that he bare. Hitler judged himself by the fruit that he bare. I see no comparison between the two men. One started life with ungodliness and ended with godliness while while the other started life in godliness and ended with ungodliness. I see no comparison between the two men as far as what is shown to us.

Don't be angry windword. We have had many disagreements and I still respect your philosophy but a just war is still not of Christ Jesus.

a reply to: Seede

The so-called doctrine of Jesus Christ IS a man-made doctrine and nothing more.

a reply to: Tangerine

The so-called doctrine of Jesus Christ IS a man-made doctrine and nothing more.

The doctrine of Christ Jesus is the Word of God taught to us by His perfect will. Not by the mouths of men but by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus have simply confirmed His teachings and not created them. Believe as you will. That is your right to do so.

The NT alone consists of over 5,686 Greek manuscripts which the consistency is 99.5 % pure -- Critics will use the 0.5 % to denigrate the 99.5 %. There are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic and Aramaic languages. The total supporting NT manuscripts base is well over 24,000. This entire NT was presented in the Greek manuscripts within 75 years of Christ Jesus' death. Even though these manuscripts verify the same events and the same people, they are recovered from various sections of the known world and not simply a cave of the dead sea. This and the consistency of accuracy means that hundreds of scribes penned with 95.5 % accuracy and being geographically separated, presented the doctrine of Christ Jesus. This was accomplished by 8 or 9 authors in 27 penned letters which were gathered and book formed by people. Can you produce another feat such as this? And that is not even considering the OT or Pseudepigrapha works which far exceed the NT work.

Now to deny this as garbage and then teach the youngsters in the universities all over the world about the illad of Homer who has only 643 copies in existence is criminal. Or even Caesar with only 10 copies existing to this date is far more criminal. Or Lucretius with a mere 2 copies. This is why this nation is about 20th or 21st in the math, arts, and sciences and declining yearly. The doctrine of Christ Jesus is the new covenant in the Bible.

a reply to: Seede

This entire NT was presented in the Greek manuscripts within 75 years of Christ Jesus' death.

Interesting. Can you provide a link to that claim?

Here is a link to an article from 2012 where they hope to have a fragment of the NT dated in the 1st century.

These new papyri will no doubt continue that trend. But, if this Mark fragment is confirmed as from the first century, what a thrill it will be to have a manuscript that is dated within the lifetime of many of the eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection!

As far as I know this is the earliest known fragment(manuscript of the NT. Rylands Library Papyrus P52

Here is the entirety of that manuscript.


It is dated to the first half of the second century some even said into the third and one put it at 100CE so if you have info on something dated as you claim I hope you have a link I would really like to read about it.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Tangerine

The so-called doctrine of Jesus Christ IS a man-made doctrine and nothing more.

The doctrine of Christ Jesus is the Word of God taught to us by His perfect will. Not by the mouths of men but by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus have simply confirmed His teachings and not created them. Believe as you will. That is your right to do so.

The NT alone consists of over 5,686 Greek manuscripts which the consistency is 99.5 % pure -- Critics will use the 0.5 % to denigrate the 99.5 %. There are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic and Aramaic languages. The total supporting NT manuscripts base is well over 24,000. This entire NT was presented in the Greek manuscripts within 75 years of Christ Jesus' death. Even though these manuscripts verify the same events and the same people, they are recovered from various sections of the known world and not simply a cave of the dead sea. This and the consistency of accuracy means that hundreds of scribes penned with 95.5 % accuracy and being geographically separated, presented the doctrine of Christ Jesus. This was accomplished by 8 or 9 authors in 27 penned letters which were gathered and book formed by people. Can you produce another feat such as this? And that is not even considering the OT or Pseudepigrapha works which far exceed the NT work.

Now to deny this as garbage and then teach the youngsters in the universities all over the world about the illad of Homer who has only 643 copies in existence is criminal. Or even Caesar with only 10 copies existing to this date is far more criminal. Or Lucretius with a mere 2 copies. This is why this nation is about 20th or 21st in the math, arts, and sciences and declining yearly. The doctrine of Christ Jesus is the new covenant in the Bible.

Sure, and Bilbo Baggins wrote "The Hobbit" on behalf of Gandalf.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Interesting. Can you provide a link to that claim?

My information came from rabbinic source and do not have a copier that works. Otherwise would send you a copy. I do not know if the manuscript figures have been updated to 2014 because almost daily there are additional discoveries as well as much has been shelved and are just being studied.
carm.org...

We have been informed that just last week there was a confirmation that a fragment of John has been verified as 1st century and regarded as the oldest fragment to date. The paper mache that is used in Egyptian mummifacation has now been the main source for manuscript discoveries. Paper was a very precious commodity in this era and used paper was used to mask the poor in Egypt. Science has now a means of dissolving the glue and preserving the used paper and ink intact. Astonishing, we now are discovering very precious manuscripts of all sources.

DeaqthSlayer,
I want to thank you for the Godly person you are. You have shown great courage to fend off the overwhelming odds against our Lord Jesus in today's world. The matter will continue to get worse each day and I pray that you and people like you will hold true to that doctrine of Christ Jesus. The fervent prayers of a righteous man does availeth much as is taught by Christ Jesus.

Seede

a reply to: Seede

You ask me a question and condemn me in the very same breath with no idea of what I believe.

It was a rhetorical question.

Don't be angry windword. We have had many disagreements and I still respect your philosophy but a just war is still not of Christ Jesus.

I'm not angry. I'm impressed with your mental gymnastics. I believe that you really want to respect my philosophy, I really do, but I don't think you understand it. Did you know that I don't believe that Jesus Christ was real person? Do you respect that? I don't think your personal moral compass allows for you to accept that, or accept that others see the same Christian doctrine completely differently than you do.

One can be a Christian and be mistaken and be forgiven for that mistake, but one cannot die in that practiced sin and be forgiven from that sin.

How can one repent from a sin that they don't know they're committing? Christopher Columbus proclaimed himself to be Christian and all the enslavement and murder, pillaging and conquering that he and his fellow Christian European explorers and conquistadors engaged in, I believe, he/they truly believed was being done in the name of Jesus Christ and HIS righteous cause.

Christians can be just as self deluded as anyone else. People who align themselves with the Bible, the mainstream doctrine being preached on Sundays and accept Christian social morals are Christians. You are not the judge or who is/was a Christian, nor do you speak for all Christians. Clearly, a huge swath of Christian understanding is missing from your repertoire, as you have admitted to be ignorant to Catholic doctrine and dogma.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Tangerine

The so-called doctrine of Jesus Christ IS a man-made doctrine and nothing more.

The doctrine of Christ Jesus is the Word of God taught to us by His perfect will. Not by the mouths of men but by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus have simply confirmed His teachings and not created them. Believe as you will. That is your right to do so.

The NT alone consists of over 5,686 Greek manuscripts which the consistency is 99.5 % pure -- Critics will use the 0.5 % to denigrate the 99.5 %. There are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic and Aramaic languages. The total supporting NT manuscripts base is well over 24,000. This entire NT was presented in the Greek manuscripts within 75 years of Christ Jesus' death. Even though these manuscripts verify the same events and the same people, they are recovered from various sections of the known world and not simply a cave of the dead sea. This and the consistency of accuracy means that hundreds of scribes penned with 95.5 % accuracy and being geographically separated, presented the doctrine of Christ Jesus. This was accomplished by 8 or 9 authors in 27 penned letters which were gathered and book formed by people. Can you produce another feat such as this? And that is not even considering the OT or Pseudepigrapha works which far exceed the NT work.

Now to deny this as garbage and then teach the youngsters in the universities all over the world about the illad of Homer who has only 643 copies in existence is criminal. Or even Caesar with only 10 copies existing to this date is far more criminal. Or Lucretius with a mere 2 copies. This is why this nation is about 20th or 21st in the math, arts, and sciences and declining yearly. The doctrine of Christ Jesus is the new covenant in the Bible.

There's no evidence that God exists. There's not an iota of contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) that Jesus ever lived. Not a word of the Bible was written by anyone who witnessed Jesus living. Yet you make outrageous, unsupportable claims. Face it, it's a belief and nothing more. A million copies of "Lord of the Rings" doesn't make Frodo real. Likewise the Bible.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NOTurTypical

No offense, but that's a load of crap!

When a German "Nazi" soldier kills the enemy, it's murder, but when an American sniper kills, God knows who, it's not.

No, "murder" is the killing of an innocent person without a trial or conviction. And I didn't say anything about a Nazi soldier killing an enemy soldier. That's war, that would not be a "murder" unless the enemy soldier killed was surrendering or in custody and not armed. I spoke about Hitler having 6 million civilian Jews murdered.

What an absurd red herring.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

No, "murder" is the killing of an innocent person without a trial or conviction.

So, when the bridal chamber failed to produce a bloody sheet, and the Rabbi ruled the girl should be stoned to death by the towns people, that wasn't murder? (This is a rhetorical question question)

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NOTurTypical

No, "murder" is the killing of an innocent person without a trial or conviction.

So, when the bridal chamber failed to produce a bloody sheet, and the Rabbi ruled the girl should be stoned to death by the towns people, that wasn't murder? (This is a rhetorical question question)

I don't even know what you're talking about to be honest.

a reply to: windword

Christians can be just as self deluded as anyone else. People who align themselves with the Bible, the mainstream doctrine being preached on Sundays and accept Christian social morals are Christians. You are not the judge or who is/was a Christian, nor do you speak for all Christians. Clearly, a huge swath of Christian understanding is missing from your repertoire, as you have admitted to be ignorant to Catholic doctrine and dogma.

Windword, You are correct and not pacifying your ego I am and always have been in respect of your knowledge. You and many others here on ATC are very intelligent. That can not be taken away from you. As a youngster back in the 40's you would probably be the guy that I sat down and had a beer with. And argue all night. Not trying to butter anyone or stroke their egos, I also would be the guy that would not even know what you were talking about if you mentioned a god or quoted the bible. I would simply crawl into a B17 and look for some one to hate. That was what I was. That was my life.

But I am not that guy anymore and my determination towards Christ Jesus is just as demanding now as it was lacking then. Believing in Christ Jesus is a growing experience which is probably different with every person on earth that goes through that experience. It is nothing more than theology and you are dead right on that score. No living person can produce God or Jesus as any sort of proof of existence and I really do not know of any truthful person who could say differently.

The mind is a wonderful organ that can be educated and re educated many times over and you are correct when you say that I do not understand all of the many denominations of Christianity. I do have some basic knowledge of the Roman Catholic liturgy but not any to really qualify myself as to say that I am knowledgeable in the Roman Christian theology. My entire understanding of the Christian God is rabbinic Christianity of the first century CE. Our theological understanding of the God of Moses is as valid as that of the Roman Christianity but correction or condemnation is not in our mindset. We are taught to leave that matter to God. You are correct when you imply that I am over zealous and that could be one of my many faults as a human but to control the mind is to conquer the spirit as they are the only surviving portion of our existence and I have failed miserably at that.

Now even at what I have confessed, isn't it also fair to assume that all men are such as myself? Am I the only selfish one that is stubborn minded and reluctant to give a step to an opponent? Isn't there some of what I am in all men? Can you fault me for wanting to live forever even if it is foolishness to most? I don't find fault with you or with Grimpachi or for that matter any person except where harm and murder is at the front. I have seen harm and murder and it is a horrible experience to see people abused and prevented to live a happy life with family and friends.

Theology is a most difficult consuming agent in this world and if not held in check can lead to hate and harm to other people. Perhaps that is one reason that Christians are so stubborn and seem so foolish. The world is gaining intolerance towards the foolish Christ followers and most all of us realize this. I can see it all over these forums here on ATS and to discuss this subject is fruitless to most Christians. But as long as we are able to gain a seat in the forum to discuss this matter I hope that Christians will do so. Thanks for letting me bend your ear even though we disagree.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

So, when the bridal chamber failed to produce a bloody sheet, and the Rabbi ruled the girl should be stoned to death by the towns people, that wasn't murder? (This is a rhetorical question question)

A virgin was examined by a priestly order to verify her virginity. A sheet was her covering of modesty with a hole cut in the sheet to allow the examination by the priest or examiner. If the woman was a virgin the hymn was broken and blood was the verification that she was indeed a virgin. Thus a bloody sheet was the proof of her virginity. The sheet being clear of blood would verify that the woman had deceived the man and thus was eligible for death by stoning. Mercy could be pleaded by the man and allowed to marry a harlot.

Yes it was barbaric by our standards of today and yes it would be murder. I would not approve of that whatsoever.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: NOTurTypical

So, when the bridal chamber failed to produce a bloody sheet, and the Rabbi ruled the girl should be stoned to death by the towns people, that wasn't murder? (This is a rhetorical question question)

A virgin was examined by a priestly order to verify her virginity. A sheet was her covering of modesty with a hole cut in the sheet to allow the examination by the priest or examiner. If the woman was a virgin the hymn was broken and blood was the verification that she was indeed a virgin. Thus a bloody sheet was the proof of her virginity. The sheet being clear of blood would verify that the woman had deceived the man and thus was eligible for death by stoning. Mercy could be pleaded by the man and allowed to marry a harlot.

Yes it was barbaric by our standards of today and yes it would be murder. I would not approve of that whatsoever.

Hymn. Many of your posts are inadvertently hilarious. I don't know how a priestly order could examine anything. Nevertheless, this is more evidence of the barbarity of religion and I thank you for alerting us to it.

a reply to: Tangerine

Hymn. Many of your posts are inadvertently hilarious. I don't know how a priestly order could examine anything. Nevertheless, this is more evidence of the barbarity of religion and I thank you for alerting us to it.

Sorry about that tangerine. I did misspell Hymen. Left the e out of the intended word of Hymen. Also I misled some in saying that lack of virginity could result in the death penalty. That is rarely the case in Judaic law.

I did not say that only a priestly order examined a virgin. This was more of a culture practice and it was not found in just one religion but various cultures and various religions. The practice was confirmed by both men and women while It was not necessarily a religious practice.

Virginity Testing
Virginity testing is the practice or custom of verifying whether or not a woman is a virgin and has engaged in sexual intercourse. Though tests vary by region, the test generally entails an inspection of a woman’s vagina for the existence of her hymen, which is a thin membrane without any nerve-endings that covers the entrance to the vagina. [4] This process is done by either a doctor, older women, or those trustworthy within a region’s community to administer the test. The test is based on the inaccurate assumption that a woman’s hymen can solely be torn from sexual intercourse. Some exams involve inserting two fingers within the vagina in an assessment of laxity of the vaginal muscles to determine habitual sexual intercourse. In addition, there is the “proof of blood” test where on a woman’s wedding night, a white sheet is placed over the bed so that after the marriage is consummated through sexual intercourse, blood, and therefore evidence of the woman’s virginity, can be seen. Virginity testing is reported to be done to girls as young as six years old, all the way up to marriage status.
www.wikigender.org...

Getting back to original post, which I should have credited to NoturTypical. It was NoturTypical who addressed the statement to Windward -- "So, when the bridal chamber failed to produce a bloody sheet, and the Rabbi ruled the girl should be stoned to death by the towns people, that wasn't murder? (This is a rhetorical question question)" -- of which Windward replied -- "I don't even know what you're talking about to be honest."

Two things were earmarked by NoturTypical as a untrue and assuming. One was Rabbi and the other was murder. As though to imply that this was a Jewish custom only and that rabbi's instigated murder of this nature. Windward appeared to have not known what was meant by NoturTypical's rhetorical question question. I then responded to NoturTypical with only one small and incomplete explanation.

To somewhat clear this matter let it be known that it was a custom in many cultures to verify virginity and mostly after an accusation by the male counterpart or even by the father of the under aged female. It was a complicated process which did not verify adultery. Adultery, in Jewish law, required witnesses in order for the accused female to be stoned and even at this it also required that both male and female be stoned. In the Jewish culture it was not a practice to punish only the female as is propagated by NoturTypical and it also was not considered murder in that case of adultery. Virginity and adultery are two unrelated matters in most cases in Jewish law.

As you can see the entire statement by NoturTypical was flawed and did entice untruth. You picked up on NoturTypical's flawed statement with your hate for religion. But don't fret tangerine, we all make mistakes.