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Capitalism for the people

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posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 08:51 PM
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Capitalism is progressive for those with the capabilities to achieve in it.. for people who lack this ability.. it is literally hell. The idea of "supply and demand" means that only a certain amount of essential needs are produced because only a certain amount of people are able to pay.... Essential needs are not produced to ensure enough for everyone..


I would say business owners are crooks.. the only way to make a profit is to raise the price of the product.. often to the point where people are unable to pay.

The republicans base success on pure competition, they could never be happy with the fact that all people have enough food and basic essentials and are happy. I think to achieve this is greater than anything imaginable.


And with the increasing homeless rate in this country.... it has little do with "laziness" as the right likes to imply. You really believe people are lazy enough to live out on a street courner? Ha Ha Ha.

With massive wealth comes massive power, and I don't mean we will steal all the wealth from the rich and give it all to the poor. I think there should just me a more equal distribution of wealth, atleast to the point where everyone could live a high standard of living.

You cannot ensure everyone has a good standard of living when the majority of the wealth is in the hands of a few.

And what have these elite few do? Well number 1, they take control of government and begin wars to enhance profit gain.




posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 08:59 PM
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No Sleeper, the left isn't going anywhere.

The purpose of the left is to counter right-wing ideas.... such as implementing Christian religious doctrine into government rather than a doctrine of fairness. And promoting nationalism.. even to the point where it begins to infringe on the rights of other people in other countries (Iraq) The right has won a victory on this but with high costs to human life.

The rest of the world must mobilize to counter this threat when it becomes a serious problem.. which is slowly becoming the case. Because GWB is coming in on his horse wearing a cowboy hat straight across into your country soon.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 09:01 PM
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[edit on 17-12-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 10:21 PM
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RedOctober says:

"Capitalism is progressive for those with the capabilities to achieve in it.. for people who lack this ability.. it is literally hell."

No. Not literally hell; probably not even figuratively hell. Even the borderline achievers get something in a free-market system. The rewards aren't as great, of course, but the ambitious ones who are willing to work usually succeed.

"The idea of "supply and demand" means that only a certain amount of essential needs are produced because only a certain amount of people are able to pay..."

I am somewhat sad, but not surprised, to see that there are still those who believe wealth is a zero-sum game. If you do not understand the concept of capital formation -- which is the base of the free-market system -- I question your ability to critique it at all.

"Essential needs are not produced to ensure enough for everyone.. "

The universe is not in the business of "ensuring" anything -- except our eventual and inevitable death. If you want to ensure this stuff, go ahead. Meanwhile, the rest of us do the best we can, hopefully responsible for our own destiny.

"I would say business owners are crooks."

I guess, as someone who lives in the world someplace, you are part of the business owner/crook society, since you patronize them.

"...the only way to make a profit is to raise the price of the product."

Rubbish. You can also make a profit by cutting your production costs, and you can also make a profit by offering better quality and thus get more market share. You can even make a profit by taking advantage of changes in the international financial exchange rates.

And you are lecturing us on how business works?

"...often to the point where people are unable to pay."

Nonsense. If people were unable to pay, the business person would have no one to sell to and would go out of business.

"The republicans base success on pure competition..."

Not the Christian fundamentalist group of the Republicans. They base success on dissemination of their ideas and the majority's acquiescense to them.

"...they could never be happy with the fact that all people have enough food and basic essentials and are happy."

Not being a Republican myself, I find it difficult to speak for them; but the ones I know do not disparage others any more than the Democrats or any of the other gangs of thugs. What annoys them, I believe, is that others insist that they be forced to provide "food", "basic essentials" and "happy" to a bunch of other people.

"I think to achieve this is greater than anything imaginable."

Red, there are those of us who think the greatest thing imaginable is the Christian concept of Salvation. However, we certainly don't want to force you to participate in our worship. You should be free to do what you choose, whether it's to go to church or not -- or decide to give your wealth to other people or not.

You do't seem to share that belief; I am not sure why.

"And with the increasing homeless rate in this country.... it has little do with "laziness" as the right likes to imply. You really believe people are lazy enough to live out on a street courner? Ha Ha Ha."

Who knows? I can't read peoples' minds. I am sure that there are lot of people on the street who made the wrong choices, and there are also those who are simply unable to take care of themselves and end up street waifs.

"With massive wealth comes massive power, and I don't mean we will steal all the wealth from the rich and give it all to the poor."

I suppose I should be thanking you because you say you aren't going to steal all my wealth. For some reason, though, I don't feel all that comforted.

"I think there should just me a more equal distribution of wealth, atleast to the point where everyone could live a high standard of living. "

And what better way to "get yours" than to steal from the people who earned it, right?

"You cannot ensure everyone has a good standard of living when the majority of the wealth is in the hands of a few."

Why do you keep thinking that I -- or the Universe -- have a requirement to ensure anything for you?



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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I'd rather pay to ensure the basic needs of the citizens here.. rather than paying to build bombs which kill innocents in Iraq. Personally I find wars of nationalism a waste of money. But a slong as you get to wave your USA flag nothing else matters right?

9-11 gave a glimpse into the suffering and carnage that the USA has forced upon people.. whether it's Vietnam or Iraq. Neither of these wars had anything to do with "defending America" I didn't know Iraq was such a threat to this country... I guess the right figure anyone who doesen't agree with American policies is an enemy who must be destroyed. I guess I am an enemy which must be destroyed?


And it's your big business buddies which benefit off of this war.. people profit off the bloodshed. Eventually these profiters will see blood themselves if they keep this up.

You mention the homeless made "Bad decisions" I guess it is there fault that many were born disabled? Wouldn't you want help if you were disabled? I doubt you would just sit around saying "well I'll suffer and die because I don't want to "steal" anyones wealth"

You would rather spend tons and tons of taxpayer money on useless wars of nationalism instead of peaceful things like helping people here at home. Makes little sense to me, but it's easy for someone to beat the wardrums when they've probab;ly never been in a combat zone or experienced the horrible death and destruction. Sure.. as long as America is well off.. who cares how many others must die right? Or have theres lives destroyed.

Whether you like it or not... you pay taxes in this country. And I can see better use of tax income funding education, healthcare, housing.. instead of wars of nationalism or war propaganda. But warmongers will never quite understand.

So "redistibuting" wealth is stealing? Then you must be calling taxiation stealing as well. But too bad, you want a government to run.. you pay taxes. Maybe you are selective when it comes to what "stealing" is. Helping the less fortunate is "stealing" while redistributing wealth for warmongering and bomb building is not stealing.

Taxiation is wealth redistribution, it's a mandatory action in most civilized nations. Taxiation is when government takes from your income and redistributes it to whatever functions it is running.

Let's quit being selective when we look at wealth redistribution.



[edit on 18-12-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 18-12-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 10:16 AM
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The left-wing is incapable of producing anything but poverty and misery for its people---the only way those types of governments can have anything is if they steal it----they like to call it wealth redistribution.

Thieves will find every reason in the book on why it is ethical for them to steal from others.

Capitalism has made products affordable for even the lowest wage earners in America. Americans can buy cars in every price range, goods of every type in every price range and the price of food is low in comparison to other countries.

Competition and mass production makes things affordable.

Under left-wing there is neither competition nor mass production---prices are higher, quality lower----scarcity constant, misery always.

The leaders of all that misery blame America-----the people dont know any better and believe the lies and propaganda.

Leftwing equals poverty for all.

Capitalism equals opportunity and prosperity for the vast majority of people.

America has its problems too because we have left-wingers always throwing the wrench into the machinery of prosperity.


[edit on 20-12-2004 by sleeper]



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper
The left-wing is incapable of producing anything but poverty and misery for its people---the only way those types of governments can have anything is if they steal it----they like to call it wealth redistribution.

Really? how do you get to this idea?


Thieves will find every reason in the book on why it is ethical for them to steal from others.

Steal? uhh wha? i think you are takeing the comunism idea as that is what the left side think.


Capitalism has made products affordable for even the lowest wage earners in America. Americans can buy cars in every price range, goods of every type in every price range and the price of food is low in comparison to other countries.


Capatalism also puts people on the streets. Do you think its ok to be cast onto the street for no reason and no fault of your own?


Competition and mass production makes things affordable.
[/quote
Compatition is ruthless and companies use any means to get thier over another.


Under left-wing there is neither competition nor mass production---prices are higher, quality lower----scarcity constant, misery always.

Really?
And i suppose a police controlled state is better?


The leaders of all that misery blame America-----the people dont know any better and believe the lies and propaganda.

And i supose america doesnt have propaganda?
While i stayed there for the elections i seen propaganda , nothing like we have back home.
And blameing america is a just cause because the american buisnesses put themselves over everyone.


Leftwing equals poverty for all.

Left equals freedom


Capitalism equals opportunity and prosperity for the vast majority of people.

Notice that "vast majority" bit there, what about the other bit? The not so well off, is it ok for them to be left behind?


America has its problems too because we have left-wingers always throwing the wrench into the machinery of prosperity.
[edit on 20-12-2004 by sleeper]

Really?
Dont remember seeing that , hmm must be that right wing propaganda working again.



posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 10:11 PM
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First off I am not a socialist or a communist so dont even think of calling me one.

Your views of capitalism are very simplistic....

Thievery is not a by product of a communist system in fact it seems to have more in common with capitalism then communism. Capitalism in its purest form is about the getting the most gain for the least investment. You cut costs as much as you can get away with to maximize your profits. Its hard to cut your costs any more then getting something for free and then selling it. People say crime doesnt pay but believe me it does. It pays very well in fact it just doesent pay very well for every one only the people on the top make alot of money. Sounds kinda like capitalism to me

The most common defense of capitalism I have seen is that a corrupt business man will not stay in business very long so they have self interest in staying honest to maximise their business. This is true to a limited extent. It doesnt really matter if your corrupt just so long as no one finds out about it. Back in the 19th century there were these guys called snake oil salesmen they would travel from place to place selling magic curealls to the ignorant for high but affordable prices. The "snake oil" was never medically effective and often dangerous because it was made from whatever the snake oil salesman could get his hands on that tasted mediciney (ingredients ranged from alcohol to turpentine to arsenic). It didnt matter if the customer got sick or even died because by the time it happed the conman had already left town.
You cant get much more free market then that.

What people forget is that capitalism is a survivor if there is a way it will find it. Capitalism is the guy that climbs on your back to save himself from drowning. Saying that a company can not survive if few people can afford the product is extremely short sighted. If that was true then why do producers of luxury goods manage to make money and thrive. If there is a way to thrive capitalism will find it even if it is at the expense of all else.

Capitalism definitely can accomplish good things but it is not the saviour it is being made out to be so lets be realistic and allow alittle moderation in our economic systems please.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by boogyman
First off I am not a socialist or a communist so dont even think of calling me one.

Your views of capitalism are very simplistic....

Thievery is not a by product of a communist system in fact it seems to have more in common with capitalism then communism. Capitalism in its purest form is about the getting the most gain for the least investment. You cut costs as much as you can get away with to maximize your profits. Its hard to cut your costs any more then getting something for free and then selling it. People say crime doesnt pay but believe me it does. It pays very well in fact it just doesent pay very well for every one only the people on the top make alot of money. Sounds kinda like capitalism to me

The most common defense of capitalism I have seen is that a corrupt business man will not stay in business very long so they have self interest in staying honest to maximise their business. This is true to a limited extent. It doesnt really matter if your corrupt just so long as no one finds out about it. Back in the 19th century there were these guys called snake oil salesmen they would travel from place to place selling magic curealls to the ignorant for high but affordable prices. The "snake oil" was never medically effective and often dangerous because it was made from whatever the snake oil salesman could get his hands on that tasted mediciney (ingredients ranged from alcohol to turpentine to arsenic). It didnt matter if the customer got sick or even died because by the time it happed the conman had already left town.
You cant get much more free market then that.

What people forget is that capitalism is a survivor if there is a way it will find it. Capitalism is the guy that climbs on your back to save himself from drowning. Saying that a company can not survive if few people can afford the product is extremely short sighted. If that was true then why do producers of luxury goods manage to make money and thrive. If there is a way to thrive capitalism will find it even if it is at the expense of all else.

Capitalism definitely can accomplish good things but it is not the saviour it is being made out to be so lets be realistic and allow alittle moderation in our economic systems please.



The snake oil salesmen never went out of business they changed their strategy and have been selling the notions of "utopia" with no effort----just let the government confiscate the property of all people and then everyone will live happily ever after-----there are plenty of suckers who are buying that idea.

You say you are not a Socialist-----you talk like one.

Europe and Canada have hogtied their Capitalism, which is why they have more than 10% unemployment, and getting worse.

Rather than loosen up on free trade----to make things better-----they instead keep moving to the left----blaming their golden gooses (corporations) for all their problems.

Kerry would have done the same for America----knock the legs out form under it.

Misery loves company----Europe and Canada dont like being miserable alone.

Thats why they are desperate to cripple America with Socialism.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 12:18 PM
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Thats why they are desperate to cripple America with Socialism.


Like Hitler though their was a marxist jewish world consiracy? Please...

Nazi's are out of fashion, they lost the war. And they were wrong.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper
Third-World countries still live on the barter system, they can---they live like people did thousands of years ago---in huts.


Is living in huts so bad? Is living in ghettos better? Primitive people don't have drug problems, do they?

Capitalism as a concept is good. However the Capitalism that we see in the present era, is not that Capitalism which you allude to. I see the present Capitalism as a highly coercive, and monopolistic market. The Mom & Pop store, and the Small Farmer just cannot compete with the Big Industial Bulldozers who have vested interests with everyone except the consumers.

Are we not, then, just mere Serfs at the mercy of the Big Businesses and intrusive Governments?

Unless we have stake in Big Business and Government as well?

(I may now be flamed).

[edit on 24/12/04 by aSEEKER]



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by Teh_Gerbil


Thats why they are desperate to cripple America with Socialism.


Like Hitler though their was a marxist jewish world consiracy? Please...

Nazi's are out of fashion, they lost the war. And they were wrong.



Socialist Hitler was wrong----and was put out of business by Capitalist democratic America.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 02:30 PM
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are you out of your mind?

IBM was trading very closely with nazi germany, as were Coca-Cola and other large corporations. In fact, the record system used by the hundreds of concentration camps, including Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Auschwitz, which used a set of punch cards to record each prisoner's identity and their reason for imprisonment was all done on IBM machines, supplied by IBM USA, not their german subsidiary. Every month, these machines had to be calibrated BY HAND, which meant that a qualified IBM engineer had to visit the camps personally and calibrate them. The profits for IBM were recovered right after the war.

On to Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola noticed that their product was not selling well on the fascist german market, so they decided to invent a new drink for the Germans: Fanta orange. Fanta was supposed to be the nazi drink, and the Germans bought it up.

It should not surprise anyone that corporate allegiance to profits will always trump their allegiance to any flag, ideology or moral code.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by Teh_Gerbil


Thats why they are desperate to cripple America with Socialism.


Like Hitler though their was a marxist jewish world consiracy? Please...

Nazi's are out of fashion, they lost the war. And they were wrong.



Socialist Hitler was wrong----and was put out of business by Capitalist democratic America.


The sad thing is - You think thats true.

Nationalist Hitler, as posted above, had plenty of American investment as the Capitalist way is to make money, and the companies did so. Hell, they supplied ALOT of stuff TO Nationalist Hitler, and the USSR during WW2. You supplied alot of the USSR's Equipment for War, Trucks, Planes, Rifles, Tanks, to them.

You made profit off of both sides; As is the way of the Capitalist.

Edit: Oh, I forgot selling weapons to Saddam and the Taliban, even supporting the Taliban and "Al-Quaeda" (Spelling?) against the USSR, and they then attacked you back when you invaded. Capitalism still great eh?

[edit on 24-12-2004 by Teh_Gerbil]



posted on Dec, 25 2004 @ 01:20 PM
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I think it's funny to think that the "right" don't do the same thing. Last time I checked, Bush has increased the size of the federal government the largest since World War II. The fact is, it works for those companies already in power to keep the current government regulation on economy. And what ultimately creates policy, money.



posted on Dec, 25 2004 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by General Zapata
are you out of your mind?

IBM was trading very closely with nazi germany, as were Coca-Cola and other large corporations. In fact, the record system used by the hundreds of concentration camps, including Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Auschwitz, which used a set of punch cards to record each prisoner's identity and their reason for imprisonment was all done on IBM machines, supplied by IBM USA, not their german subsidiary. Every month, these machines had to be calibrated BY HAND, which meant that a qualified IBM engineer had to visit the camps personally and calibrate them. The profits for IBM were recovered right after the war.

On to Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola noticed that their product was not selling well on the fascist german market, so they decided to invent a new drink for the Germans: Fanta orange. Fanta was supposed to be the nazi drink, and the Germans bought it up.

It should not surprise anyone that corporate allegiance to profits will always trump their allegiance to any flag, ideology or moral code.


Yeah and drinking Coke and using IBM products is the reason there is so much brain damage in Third World countries-----that explains the leftwing mind-----its been damaged by drinking to much Capitalist coke.



posted on Dec, 25 2004 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by Radiohead
I think it's funny to think that the "right" don't do the same thing. Last time I checked, Bush has increased the size of the federal government the largest since World War II. The fact is, it works for those companies already in power to keep the current government regulation on economy. And what ultimately creates policy, money.



Millions of Americans voted to keep Bush in office----he is the best man to keep the lid on the spread of the leftwing.

Only in leftwing countries can the powerful put and keep their man in office.

But then you probably knew that.



posted on Dec, 25 2004 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by aSEEKER

Originally posted by sleeper
Third-World countries still live on the barter system, they can---they live like people did thousands of years ago---in huts.


Is living in huts so bad? Is living in ghettos better? Primitive people don't have drug problems, do they?

Capitalism as a concept is good. However the Capitalism that we see in the present era, is not that Capitalism which you allude to. I see the present Capitalism as a highly coercive, and monopolistic market. The Mom & Pop store, and the Small Farmer just cannot compete with the Big Industial Bulldozers who have vested interests with everyone except the consumers.

Are we not, then, just mere Serfs at the mercy of the Big Businesses and intrusive Governments?

Unless we have stake in Big Business and Government as well?

(I may now be flamed).

[edit on 24/12/04 by aSEEKER]



If you think 6 Billion (people today) perhaps 10 billion in a few years can live in huts that's ok----the smell might be bad though, and starvation high.

Mom and pops will always be around but to feed a world of billions of people it takes large corporations with the financial ability to produce the most product with the least resources.

A modern world cannot survive without large Corporations.

Cheap food, cars, furniture, housing and every thing else can only be affordable if produced in large quantities.



posted on Dec, 25 2004 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper



Socialist Hitler was wrong----and was put out of business by Capitalist democratic America.

Socialist hitler didnt exist.
He was voted in and soon took over, aka dictator.



posted on Dec, 25 2004 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by Radiohead
I think it's funny to think that the "right" don't do the same thing. Last time I checked, Bush has increased the size of the federal government the largest since World War II. The fact is, it works for those companies already in power to keep the current government regulation on economy. And what ultimately creates policy, money.



Millions of Americans voted to keep Bush in office----he is the best man to keep the lid on the spread of the leftwing.

Only in leftwing countries can the powerful put and keep their man in office.

But then you probably knew that.


So thats why Bush has the backing of many large businesses interested in his lifting of restrictions and allowing them to monopolise? And the wealthy people who like his favoring them?

Nice.
Are you calling Bush a commie now? He won't like that.

Right Wings = Higher Classes Friend
Left Wings = Workers Friend

(Kinda simplified, but the basic thing incase sleeper doesn't know, which it seems to be something along those lines)



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