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A better understanding of saved by grace vs saved by works and how it all connects

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posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:23 AM
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originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369




Are you really trying to tell me that religion doesn't give requirements for getting into heaven?


Correct. Justification is by grace through faith, not by works.




.....so the lifeguards would only save you if you believed in Jesus? how is that not a requirement?, a condition?



Because the Bible says faith itself is a gift of God. Faith isn't a work. Remember when Peter said to Jesus "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God"?

Jesus said "blessed are you Simon bar Jonah, for that was revealed to you by heaven and not from man."




posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Sigh.....spirit? is that really where you're going with this? Besides you said beings and creatures, not 'spirit' having organisms.....whatever a 'spirit' is....


Am I not afforded to chance to clarify my position? If my use of creature/being was confusing then I can try and re-explain myself. When I said that I wasn't considering bacteria and viruses. Okay?




But if you looked into it its their way of life, and eating a neighbor is just par of the course. Our morals are of no consequence to them or other people around the world. And they're not killing in self defense or the defense of others, they're just hungry.


That would be tradition and customs, and often they are against God. I'm talking about the conscious of man. And even the Bible says a repeated sin sears the conscious as if with a hot iron.


edit on 12-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2015 @ 10:04 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
Because the Bible says faith itself is a gift of God. Faith isn't a work. Remember when Peter said to Jesus "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God"?

Jesus said "blessed are you Simon bar Jonah, for that was revealed to you by heaven and not from man."


Yes that nice.....but if a gift is rejected and said gift is then required in order to enter the heaven/kingdom/cloud city......?

No matter how you squirm, or what you quote, you cannot escape the fact that jesus (unlike lifeguards) requires something of you before he will hand you a life jacket...



That would be tradition and customs, and often they are against God. I'm talking about the conscious of man. And even the Bible says a repeated sin sears the conscious as if with a hot iron.


No it's their morality and what their society is based on, just like ours. You have to come to terms with the fact that morality is not universal, never has been and probably never will be. Kinda destroying your claim that your god decided what was moral for us.....



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 06:38 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




No matter how you squirm, or what you quote, you cannot escape the fact that jesus (unlike lifeguards) requires something of you before he will hand you a life jacket...


Yes, the same thing He required of the thief on the cross. Nothing but belief.




Kinda destroying your claim that your god decided what was moral for us.....


Not at all, the cannibal doesn't have to agree to murder being a sin for them to be held accountable for it. Their feeling on the matter doesn't change God's command.



edit on 15-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 07:40 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369



No matter how you squirm, or what you quote, you cannot escape the fact that jesus (unlike lifeguards) requires something of you before he will hand you a life jacket...


Yes, the same thing He required of the thief on the cross. Nothing but belief.


Finally!

This means when you said things such as:



THAT ^^ is false. There are no conditions we have to meet to receive salvation, that's why it's GRACE.


and:



Think if it like the Titanic has already sunk and people are dying in the water. And a helicopter comes by with a line of life for people to be rescued and people reject the lifeline.


You were incorrect yes?

The helicopter comes along and only saves those people that meet your gods requirements or conditions and leaves the rest in the water to drown despite there being plenty of room in the chopper, yes?

Could you imagine anyone else being so cold or sinister?


Not at all, the cannibal doesn't have to agree to murder being a sin for them to be held accountable for it. Their feeling on the matter doesn't change God's command.


Your argument was that your god 'programmed' everyone with it's chosen morality and as you have shown above, that's obviously not true.

Do you always have to go around the houses like this in order to reach a conclusion? or is it that you've not really put much thought into these issues?



posted on Jan, 15 2015 @ 09:18 PM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Could you imagine anyone else being so cold or sinister?


Huh? It's a free ticket out of Hell. LMAO

A judge sentences you to the death penalty for your crimes against the state, but then offers a full pardon if you simply ask him for one. You're telling me you would call that judge "cold and sinister"?






Your argument was that your god 'programmed' everyone with it's chosen morality and as you have shown above, that's obviously not true.


Yes, He has. Even a child knows it's wrong to murder, wrong to steal, wrong to lie et cetra, et cetra.




edit on 15-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2015 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
Huh? It's a free ticket out of Hell. LMAO


No it's the same old mobb boss promising to not send you to 'hell' just as long as you do what he wants you to do........


A judge sentences you to the death penalty for your crimes against the state, but then offers a full pardon if you simply ask him for one. You're telling me you would call that judge "cold and sinister"?


Sure I would! The judge has given me a death sentence purely because I do not have faith in his existence.

What kind of malicious and vicious judge would do that?........

No matter how you attempt to frame the circumstances, no matter what analogy you create, you will always be stuck with a god that holds you to ransome.



Yes, He has. Even a child knows it's wrong to murder, wrong to steal, wrong to lie et cetra, et cetra.


Even if that were true then the children belonging to the cannibal tribes in the Philippines would know those things were inherently wrong aswel. But as we've discussed.........they don't.


edit on 16-1-2015 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2015 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Sure I would! The judge has given me a death sentence purely because I do not have faith in his existence.


No, the Judge gave you the death sentence because you are a sinner. The first time you violated your conscious and either lied, stole something, whatever you sinned.



What kind of malicious and vicious judge would do that?........


One you made up? That was a straw man.




Even if that were true then the children belonging to the cannibal tribes in the Philippines would know those things were inherently wrong aswel. But as we've discussed.........they don't.


We discussed that they don't after a time, we have no idea what moral conflict they have with the first murder. The conscious can be seared.



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 08:00 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369
No, the Judge gave you the death sentence because you are a sinner. The first time you violated your conscious and either lied, stole something, whatever you sinned.


Ha so it's even worse, the death sentence is given for nothing more than being human, this character would make a great one dimensional antagonist in a Steven Seagal movie....


One you made up? That was a straw man.


Not at all, see above. There are no redeeming qualities in this god...


We discussed that they don't after a time, we have no idea what moral conflict they have with the first murder. The conscious can be seared.


No you said something about being a war hero.....and I told you that the cannibal society and culture has been around for thousands of years, probably a lot longer too.

You have a very blinkered view of reality it seems....



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 09:02 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Not at all, see above. There are no redeeming qualities in this god..


Says YOU.

And you are free to feel that way, proof of the free will you were given.





No you said something about being a war hero


I said the first time a person has to look another person in the eyes and kill them there is a great moral conflict, every time after that,.. not so much so. It's because the conscious gets seared.


edit on 17-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369
Says YOU.

And you are free to feel that way, proof of the free will you were given.


You've been unable to refute my statement that your god holds its creations to ransom, and is no better than a mobb boss.

And you'd really have to show this god along with free will actually exists before making such a claim.




posted on Jan, 17 2015 @ 07:11 PM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




You've been unable to refute my statement that your god holds its creations to ransom, and is no better than a mobb boss.


I can't refute your idea of God. It's a straw man false description of God, it's your personal opinion. And you are free to believe whatever you want, no big deal. I can try and explain it to you a million times, but I cannot understand it for you once.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 12:38 PM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369

I can't refute your idea of God. It's a straw man false description of God, it's your personal opinion. And you are free to believe whatever you want, no big deal. I can try and explain it to you a million times, but I cannot understand it for you once.



No it's your god, all i've drawn from is what you've told me. You said Jesus was rescuing people from the titanic, you said he required something from us and you said he'd leave behind those that didn't meet his requirements...

And the cannibals do not have the same morals we have in the west, they have the morals their society has given them, the same morals they've had for thousands of years. It's the height of hubris to assume that they'd have the same morals that we do based on nothing but supernatural beliefs...



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