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A better understanding of saved by grace vs saved by works and how it all connects

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posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 08:12 PM
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God (who is love ) and The Angels of God/Love wants people to know that they are LOVED. Being in darkness is not knowing that you are Loved and feeling empty inside. When a person finally understands that they are LOVED, then they have inner peace and feel whole inside. They know that they are safe, nurtured, and guided for the betters so fear and worry (which is darkness - lack of Faith) vanishes as Light ( Love) has over come it. This is The Grace of God, the inner peace given to you through his Holy Spirit. It is Fire that baptizes by burning away the error/sin and leaves only the good/righteousness remaining ( as John The Baptist prophecized Jesus will do through The Holy Spirit).

By feeling LOVED and knowing you are protected ,THEN you have peace and are ABLE to be more patient and kind (qualities of Love).



The Fire of God ( hot and pure white - The Essence of Love) burns darkness/death/sickness/sin and leaves Love, Joy, Peace and all of The Fruits of The Holy Spirit remaining. God remembers your sins no more but for on what The Holy Spirit has done through you as you know that you are Forgiven and Safe as God is Love.

The Fire of God's Holy Spirit of pure warm love be with you. Love God with all your heart instead of fear God for perfect Love cast out fear, this Love being the faith that God loves you, guides you and protects you, and to Love God meaning to offer your praise/gratitude that you don't have to be left in darkness feeling empty but can feel Whole through knowing you are loved.

God is Love. Angels means messengers in Greek so Angels of God which is the same as saying Angels of Love reminds you that you are loved

God is Love so Love is the meaning of life and si as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 if we don't have Love then we have nothing even if we have faith to move mountains.

This is how to distinguish an angel from a rebelling "angel" and one who claims to follow God from one who actually does:

They know that God is Love so to know Love is to know God.

They therefore know Love is the meaning for Life so without Love Life is meaningless.

They remind you that God - Our Merciful Father in Heaven is merciful/forgiving , wishes for none to be lost but for all to be saved from hell and outter darkness by accepting the fact that we are forgiven and that God is Love and therefore Loves us all.
edit on 9-1-2015 by arpgme because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 10:23 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

It isn't hard to begin with. Either man tries to earn righteousness on their own, or they realize they can't and they seek forgiveness for their sin.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 07:54 AM
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If your god was a god of love (of was even capable of love) he wouldn't have created a hell (for any purpose) and he certainly wouldn't send anyone there.

You sound a bit like an unfortunate North Korean citizen attempting to demonstrate to the glorious leader just how loyal you are.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369

Wouldn't it be far more evil for Him to force people who want absolutely nothing to do with Him to spend an eternity in His presence?

Hell is the place that is 100% free of anything that comes from God, love, hope, et cetra. People choose to go there o their own by their refusal to ask for the free gift of having their sins reconciled.

Or maybe you think it would have been better for God to create man without a free will? Where we are all robots who didn't have the capacity to reject God?



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:11 AM
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a reply to: NOTurTypical



Hell is the place that is 100% free of anything that comes from God


Logically, that must mean that Hell doesn't exist. Because, from my understanding, God created everything.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:20 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369

Wouldn't it be far more evil for Him to force people who want absolutely nothing to do with Him to spend an eternity in His presence?


It would be incredibly horrible yes, but not quite as terrible and vicious as burning in a lake of fire for all of eternity (which is the more common interpretation). Why isn't eternal sleep an option? the nothingness we all came from before we were born.


Hell is the place that is 100% free of anything that comes from God, love, hope, et cetra.


Well that's one interpretation of hell, a more cuddly and acceptable interpretation most probably molded by the rest of society.

Why would we need things like hope or love if we're dead?


People choose to go there o their own by their refusal to ask for the free gift of having their sins reconciled.


The apologists version of choice, the same kind of choice given by mob bosses.

'hey you chose not to pay me, now I gotta break your legs'


Or maybe you think it would have been better for God to create man without a free will? Where we are all robots who didn't have the capacity to reject God?


Or maybe the god could let people live their own lives and stay out of their business. If they want something to worship then great, they get what they want and so does the god.If they don't, oh well, let it go.....

Plus free will isn't free will if there's a coercing threat involved.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:26 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NOTurTypical



Hell is the place that is 100% free of anything that comes from God


Logically, that must mean that Hell doesn't exist. Because, from my understanding, God created everything.



I mean anything good that comes from God. Hell was created long before the fall of man to punish the fallen angels who rebelled.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:29 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Why would we need things like hope or love if we're dead?


The only thing that "dies" is the flesh, the spirit and soul are eternal. They are energy and have no mass, therefore they cannot be affected by time. (E=mc^2)

God doesn't send anyone to Hell, we already send ourselves by rebellion. And the only place for any of us to go for eternity is the only place in the spiritual dimensions where He has completely removed Himself.





Or maybe the god could let people live their own lives and stay out of their business.


That is precisely what He does now.




Plus free will isn't free will if there's a coercing threat involved.


That's not true, just for the simple fact that consequences exist doesn't negate free will. There is a hot stove, you have the choice to touch it or not touch it, but if you put your hand on it it will be burned. But the choice to touch it or leave it alone was your choice.


edit on 10-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:37 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369




Why would we need things like hope or love if we're dead?


The only thing that "dies" is the flesh, the spirit and soul are eternal. They are energy and have no mass, therefore they cannot be affected by time. (E=mc^2)



Energy dissipates though, just like when you blow a candle out, It's not still burning somewhere. The process that was creating the energy was ended, just like when we die.

Besides I was speaking about those that didn't buy the god story, those you say would be 100% free of the god.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:40 AM
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originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369




Why would we need things like hope or love if we're dead?


The only thing that "dies" is the flesh, the spirit and soul are eternal. They are energy and have no mass, therefore they cannot be affected by time. (E=mc^2)



Energy dissipates though, just like when you blow a candle out, It's not still burning somewhere. The process that was creating the energy was ended, just like when we die.

Besides I was speaking about those that didn't buy the god story, those you say would be 100% free of the god.


I think entropy is the "bondage to decay" that exists in our known reality since the fall. I don't think it exists in the spiritual dimensions, only the 4 dimensions we know as reality.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:52 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369
God doesn't send anyone to Hell, we already send ourselves by rebellion. And the only place for any of us to go for eternity is the only place in the spiritual dimensions where He has completely removed Himself.


Another example of the mob analogy. Do X or I will do Y to you.

And if that is what you call hell, why give it such a dramatic name? surely you know of the other more common interpretations of hell involving torture etc? why label it with the same name?

Why not just call it 'dead'?



That is precisely what He does now.


Then why would you describe the non-act of not believing in the god as a 'rebellion'?


That's not true, just for the simple fact that consequences exist doesn't negate free will. There is a hot stove, you have the choice to touch it or not touch it, but if you put your hand on it it will be burned. But the choice to touch it or leave it alone was your choice.


A more fitting example would be if the stove ordered me to touch it and threatened to pour boiling hot water over me if I didn't.

It's not a choice if the consequences are so dire that they leave you with no option but to concede.

Hence the mobb boss analogy.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:58 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Another example of the mob analogy. Do X or I will do Y to you.


You're thinking of it all wrong. We have free will, that's the most loving way to create a being. The natural secondary consequence of free will is some would choose not to love back and choose rebellion. Think if it like the Titanic has already sunk and people are dying in the water. And a helicopter comes by with a line of life for people to be rescued and people reject the lifeline.




Then why would you describe the non-act of not believing in the god as a 'rebellion'?


I didn't. The acts of sin are acting contrary to the moral compass God had given all of us in our conscious. (not to steal, not to murder, not to covet et cetra)




A more fitting example would be if the stove ordered me to touch it and threatened to pour boiling hot water over me if I didn't.


That's a false analogy, see above. The stove was on long before you or I were born.



edit on 10-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369
You're thinking of it all wrong. We have free will, that's the most loving way to create a being.


I would agree with that except for the fact that most beings do not have free will.


The natural secondary consequence of free will is some would choose not to love back and choose rebellion.


Not loving someone back is not a rebellion. Expecting someone to love you just because you love them is incredibly inappropriate and obsessive.


Think if it like the Titanic has already sunk and people are dying in the water. And a helicopter comes by with a line of life for people to be rescued and people reject the lifeline.


Failed analogy as the people in the helicopter are offering life-jackets only on the condition that those in the water love them. Lifeguards don't do that, they save lives regardless and expect nothing in return.


I didn't. The acts of sin are acting contrary to the moral compass God had given all of us in our conscious. (not to steal, not to murder, not to covet et cetra)


Well you actually did, look a few posts up.

If not loving the god is a sin/rebellion worthy of being sent to a hell, and we were pre-programmed with the gods morals, at what point does free-will enter the story?



That's a false analogy, see above. The stove was on long before you or I were born.


What difference does the length of time the stove has been on the fire make?



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 08:20 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




I would agree with that except for the fact that most beings do not have free will.


Programmed robots do not have free will, All creatures on Earth have free will. You are using the internet right now because you chose to log on instead of doing something else. And having a pre-programmed moral compass doesn't negate free will, people can ignore that moral compass and do things contrary to it.

I hear people argue all the time that you don't need religion to be good or moral, and that's 100% true. All humans are given a conscience by God as to what is right and what is wrong. But we also have a fallen nature, we don't follow that conscious every time and in every situation, we fail.




Well you actually did, look a few posts up.


No, it was poor wording on my part. It was meant as "in addition to", I should have said "people would choose not to love Him back and people would also choose rebellion". That's my fault.





Failed analogy as the people in the helicopter are offering life-jackets only on the condition that those in the water love them.


THAT ^^ is false. There are no conditions we have to meet to receive salvation, that's why it's GRACE. Love comes afterward and is a natural secondary consequence of having been forgiven already. "He who has been forgiven much, loves much." Don't confuse cause and effect.


edit on 12-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 08:58 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369
Programmed robots do not have free will, All creatures on Earth have free will.


A romantic yet incorrect way of looking at things, do bacteria or viruses have free will? does fungi? what about algae, worms or gastropods?

Even free will amongst humans is questionable, we have urges, needs and compulsions that we enact without much if any thought.

Free will may just be an illusion.



You are using the internet right now because you chose to log on instead of doing something else.


Well I felt the urge to log on.....I felt compulsed to see the sport results. Whether or not I had 100% control of those decisions is not a certainty.


And having a pre-programmed moral compass doesn't negate free will, people can ignore that moral compass and do things contrary to it.


Didn't you just say that pre-programmed robots have no free will? if we made pre-programmed robots with a moral compass would they also have the ability to ignore it? is it just moral compass programming that can be ignored? or just humans that can ignore pre-programmed instructions?


I hear people argue all the time that you don't need religion to be good or moral, and that's 100% true. All humans are given a conscience by God as to what is right and what is wrong. But we also have a fallen nature, we don't follow that conscious every time and in every situation, we fail.


The differences in morals throughout the world kinda kills this argument, if your jesus god really did give everyone their morals, why are there things like cannibal societies in the Philippines? they have no qualms about killing and eating a person from a nearby village if they felt aggrieved or even peckish and have been doing so for thousands of years.



No, it was poor wording on my part. It was meant as "in addition to", I should have said "people would choose not to love Him back and people would also choose rebellion". That's my fault.


So when you say 'No'.....you actually mean 'Yes'?



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 09:02 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
THAT ^^ is false. There are no conditions we have to meet to receive salvation, that's why it's GRACE. Love comes afterward and is a natural secondary consequence of having been forgiven already. "He who has been forgiven much, loves much." Don't confuse cause and effect.


I think THAT might've struck a chord there....

Are you really trying to tell me that religion doesn't give requirements for getting into heaven?



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




Are you really trying to tell me that religion doesn't give requirements for getting into heaven?


Correct. Justification is by grace through faith, not by works.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369




A romantic yet incorrect way of looking at things, do bacteria or viruses have free will? does fungi? what about algae, worms or gastropods?


I could be wrong, but I don't think those organisms have a spirit.




The differences in morals throughout the world kinda kills this argument, if your jesus god really did give everyone their morals, why are there things like cannibal societies in the Philippines? they have no qualms about killing and eating a person from a nearby village if they felt aggrieved or even peckish and have been doing so for thousands of years.


How do you know they didn't have a moral conflict with the first person they killed? The conscious can be seared, I'm a veteran, the first kill is a very tough call to make internally, after the first one it's not really a conflict with the conscious.




Even free will amongst humans is questionable, we have urges, needs and compulsions that we enact without much if any thought.


The fact that we have sub-conscious instinct doesn't negate conscious free-will choices. We have both.


edit on 12-1-2015 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369




Are you really trying to tell me that religion doesn't give requirements for getting into heaven?


Correct. Justification is by grace through faith, not by works.




.....so the lifeguards would only save you if you believed in Jesus? how is that not a requirement?, a condition?


edit on 12-1-2015 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:18 AM
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originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Prezbo369
I could be wrong, but I don't think those organisms have a spirit.


Sigh.....spirit? is that really where you're going with this?

Besides you said beings and creatures, not 'spirit' having organisms.....whatever a 'spirit' is....




How do you know they didn't have a moral conflict with the first person they killed? The conscious can be seared, I'm a veteran, the first kill is a very tough call to make internally, after the first one it's not really a conflict with the conscious.


Sure...

But if you looked into it its their way of life, and eating a neighbor is just par of the course. Our morals are of no consequence to them or other people around the world. And they're not killing in self defense or the defense of others, they're just hungry.



The fact that we have sub-conscious instinct doesn't negate conscious free-will choices. We have both.


Like I said its questionable, and there's no definite answer either way.

And if there isn't any free will, then I'm not sure we'd even know.




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