Debunking Abduction Debunkers

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Thanks for that bookmarked and saved. Looks like a good read.


Cheers

Karla Turner deserves honorable mention. She pretty much laid down the ET agenda and exposes the dark side of it.

youtu.be...

originally posted by: DarthFazer
Karla Turner deserves honorable mention. She pretty much laid down the ET agenda and exposes the dark side of it.
youtu.be...

She does seem to have done a lot of "sincere work" on the subject.

I've only read one of her books, not until mid-2011. I wrote about it at the time:

I interpret this like the author is basically recounting how she read a UFO abduction book, then as she and her husband and others totally obsessed on the topic, read more books, went to MUFON meetings, and got hypnotized about it–-mind you often hypnotizing each other-–well it just showed up more and more in their lives.

The irony is, I don’t have any trouble believing her account is legit, I just have trouble believing that it isn’t a little more evident to people that you get what you focus on energy-wise.

Frankly if everybody read UFO literature first and only remembered stuff because they got hypnotized, I just wouldn’t believe any of it either, it’s hard not to sympathize with skeptics on this.

Not surprisingly, she seemed to concur with the "popular hypnotists" about the subject.

I hope to read her other books at some point.

In my notes on Karla's book I found this mention of Jacob's book, since this thread was about that, thought I'd throw it in.

Somewhere near the end of my Bewilderness era — after actually trying to read Mack’s book but having it paranormally vanish repeatedly (multiple copies of it I mean, I kept buying it again)–I finally read a Jacobs book (‘Secret Life’, because the title reminded me of my own life). I only managed to read it because I literally sat in the bookstore parking lot and read it, afraid it would vanish too. I hated it. Let’s find someone totally paranoid and let them hypnotize people to see if their experiences reflect the hypnotists paranoia, you think? Of course, I was surreally positive and he was negative, and then one of his subjects used the same words I had in my journals about something, which totally validated it for me, which totally pissed me off. Because you know, at that point I really needed denial. So I admit how I interpreted the book at the time might have had a little hostility thrown in.

RC

a reply to: DarthFazer

Could you list three (or just one) bits of testable evidence proving that extraterrestrials exist, visit earth and abduct people? Thank you.

Brian Josephson's copy of Dan Drasin's Zen and the Art of Debunkery
www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk...

I might add that humans experienced and discussed wind long before meteorology had the tools and understanding to actually measure it let alone see how it came about.

There is this mistaken idea that logic is science and science requires proof. Actually, logic begins long before formal science, with human observation, including raw and noisy data. Eventually, it moves into actual collection of that data. Eventually, that moves into early science, which can include generating a hypothesis and testing it against the null with the data, whether or old or new. It still may be wholly empirical or human-reportive at this point, this kind of science tends to be more about correlation than causation, but that's usually only the beginning. Eventually if all goes well, and a great deal of understanding and discarding of things has come about with the prior processes, then you can get into the 'serious' science of double-blind and control groups and even, if it's applicable, testing physically measurable data (or as Drasin might have put it, bringing things into a lab and striking them with hammers). Eventually, after a sufficient amount of that, cultural consensus of the science concludes 'proof' vs. theory. There are subjects with many many decades of science and papers and evidence which are still only in theory stage.

This overall process is fairly extended in time. When people attempt to use either ridicule, or imply that one must supply physical evidence to test for proof before so much as discussion about the early noisy data is engaged in, it is anti-science: it literally prevents the natural developmental process of human exploration that eventually leads to science being possible with a given subject... if it isn't stifled by church authorities or in the modern world, wanna-be debunkers.

It is not debunking to point out that physical evidence is rare and controversial for a given area of reported human experience. So it is. If our only purpose here was a chemistry report, that would matter a lot more. But the primary purpose here is discussion. The whole 'prove it' snippet injected into abduction threads merely dissuades and discourages discussion.

RC

a reply to: RedCairo

I might add that humans experienced and discussed wind long before meteorology had the tools and understanding to actually measure it let alone see how it came about.

Correct; the ancients believed that wind was caused by spirits possessed of volition. The fact that people experienced wind was proof that these spirits existed. Pointing out that wind was simply air in motion, and that there must be a natural, ie; non-animistic, explanation would not be welcome in certain circles. An apt parallel.

a reply to: RedCairo

From what I see there very little logic or science in ufology. Most of the time it boils down to simply attributing something unknown to be of extraterrestrial origin, and rant against anyone questioning this, calling them wanna-be debunkers and what not.

I don't think a reasonable argument is a rant. And it is fair to point out what is, vs. is not, legitimately 'debunking.'

Merely making clear 'you don't have physical evidence for a lab test in your hand' is not debunking. That case could have been made against innumerable subjects throughout history. Sometimes a field of study is simply not there yet.

There are people who, because there isn't yet the equivalent of chemistry proof, believe "there is nothing to study" and want to say or imply that "the people reporting such experiences are just psychologically messed up and/or lying." That is just as biased and "coming to a conclusion" injustly as people talking about interdimensional beings or aliens. At least in the latter case the people generally have personal experience to base a philosophy off; any human has the right to defend their personal experience, whatever it may be. In the former case, it seems mostly dismissive insult based on assumption.

Were these reports incredibly rare, there might be more to support the nothing-to-study-they're-just-crazy-or-lying concept. But given many such reports exist throughout time and around the world, this suggests there is probably more to study before anybody can say they have even half an answer about any of it -- on either side.

I agree that the 'assumption' about 'aliens' is an assumption; I wouldn't call them aliens. But I would agree there is a 'them' and there is a 'human experience of interaction with them' -- whatever 'them' might be.

My original point was merely that discussion forums are for discussion. Posts which serve only to subtly or overtly ridicule or intimidate the people having a discussion are not good for the topic, or the participants, or usually the forum for that matter. Probably you can find other forum threads where 'abductees' and their like are addressed harshly with great zest and zeal... I seem to recall seeing some in the past.

RC

originally posted by: RedCairo
I don't think a reasonable argument is a rant. And it is fair to point out what is, vs. is not, legitimately 'debunking.'

Merely making clear 'you don't have physical evidence for a lab test in your hand' is not debunking. That case could have been made against innumerable subjects throughout history. Sometimes a field of study is simply not there yet.

There are people who, because there isn't yet the equivalent of chemistry proof, believe "there is nothing to study" and want to say or imply that "the people reporting such experiences are just psychologically messed up and/or lying." That is just as biased and "coming to a conclusion" injustly as people talking about interdimensional beings or aliens. At least in the latter case the people generally have personal experience to base a philosophy off; any human has the right to defend their personal experience, whatever it may be. In the former case, it seems mostly dismissive insult based on assumption.

Were these reports incredibly rare, there might be more to support the nothing-to-study-they're-just-crazy-or-lying concept. But given many such reports exist throughout time and around the world, this suggests there is probably more to study before anybody can say they have even half an answer about any of it -- on either side.

I agree that the 'assumption' about 'aliens' is an assumption; I wouldn't call them aliens. But I would agree there is a 'them' and there is a 'human experience of interaction with them' -- whatever 'them' might be.

My original point was merely that discussion forums are for discussion. Posts which serve only to subtly or overtly ridicule or intimidate the people having a discussion are not good for the topic, or the participants, or usually the forum for that matter. Probably you can find other forum threads where 'abductees' and their like are addressed harshly with great zest and zeal... I seem to recall seeing some in the past.

RC

Great points my friend!

A true scientist/investigator researches a subject and realizes their worst mistake is to operate from bias, just ask any lab scientist or police detective.

Debunkers begin with a closed mind, case closed.

Given that this phenomenon could be occurring, it follows logically and quite easily that it is being covered up heavily by the government - and all government agencies by extension, the media etc.

So given it is heavily covered up in so many other areas, would there not be some on here who would attempt to cover it up? Of course.

Debunkers say -well, if there were such a pervasive cover-up there would be a few leaks. THERE ARE. Many people have leaked. But they are discredited or killed. So debunkers even ignore the proof they demand. Basically an impossible group to reason with.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Given that this phenomenon could be occurring, it follows logically and quite easily that it is being covered up heavily by the government - and all government agencies by extension, the media etc.

This is a complete non-sequitur. Why would the government cover up something for which there is absolutely no physical evidence? Do you believe that the government is covering up the existence of unicorns and pixies?

More importantly no-one, absolutely no-one, is denying that the "phenomenon" is occurring. What skeptics reject is the automatic assumption that people's experiences in their dreams are in any way connected with extra-terrestrial beings.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Given that this phenomenon could be occurring, it follows logically and quite easily that it is being covered up heavily by the government - and all government agencies by extension, the media etc.

This is a complete non-sequitur. Why would the government cover up something for which there is absolutely no physical evidence? Do you believe that the government is covering up the existence of unicorns and pixies?

More importantly no-one, absolutely no-one, is denying that the "phenomenon" is occurring. What skeptics reject is the automatic assumption that people's experiences in their dreams are in any way connected with extra-terrestrial beings.

I don't know why they find it difficult to understand that. We state it over and over.

a reply to: DJW001

do you hear a lot of storey of unicorns abducting people ? anal probing them with their horns ? pixie's helping them.. no ?

hypothetically , would the government make any actions to cover up the phenomena , to provide future deniability ,when some kind of future integration is made, say 100 years from now , 200.. etc

would these story's now, stain any type of future integration?

funbox

a reply to: funbox

do you hear a lot of storey of unicorns abducting people ?

Of course not, they have been covered up. I can almost understand the rest of your post. Keep up the effort

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

how could you ? its plain to see its a bad light shone . lets not even figure in the storeys on cattle and human mutilations , those don't shine a nice light either .

a seed sown now could lead to potential future genocide/war , sparked by the future relative of one of this eras abductee claimants

funbox

a reply to: funbox

You lost me

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

here , jnr fisherproice to the rescue



...

take the things written in the bible and Koran as an example, do you think they have effect on todays reality ?

now , project the story's of today into the future minds of those unborn, 200 years from now ,the worlds just had its big meeting ceremony in front of Washington... silently somewhere these story's will sow a mistrust in some people , they group in collaborations of mistrust of the new visitors , then conspire

imagine the future trade deals that would be lost , the genocide and on-going wars, enslavement or worst

just because of some sleep paralysis induced dreams ?
a small effort to debunk in this era might just be saving humankinds relations with future alien interactions.

funbox

a reply to: funbox

take the things written in the bible and Koran as an example, do you think they have effect on todays reality ?

You mean like smashing planes into buildings? Lots of people believe in the bible and God. Is that what you mean?

now , project the story's of today into the future minds of those unborn, 200 years from now ,the worlds just had its big meeting ceremony in front of Washington... silently somewhere these story's will sow a mistrust in some people , they group in collaborations of mistrust of the new visitors , then conspire

I honestly don't think these abduction stories will have staying power. I really believe that the whole idea of abduction memories recovered from hypnosis will be abandoned and forgotten. I predict that we will have a better understanding of what is going on in the future and it wont have anything to do with aliens.

You mean like smashing planes into buildings? Lots of people believe in the bible and God. Is that what you mean?

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

that's one example , nice shot, you could pick a multitude of other examples too , if ya like

I honestly don't think these abduction stories will have staying power

how did you arrive at thinking like that about the phemonena , theres been far less interesting/gruesome story's that have withstood the ages. seems that even over the decades the abductions phenomena , and the whole arena of alien visitation , has been phenomenal . its imprint is here to stay in my eyes

I predict that we will have a better understanding of what is going on in the future

I hope you're right

funbox

You mean like smashing planes into buildings? Lots of people believe in the bible and God. Is that what you mean?

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

that's one example , nice shot, you could pick a multitude of other examples too , if ya like

I honestly don't think these abduction stories will have staying power

how did you arrive at thinking like that about the phemonena , theres been far less interesting/gruesome story's that have withstood the ages. seems that even over the decades the abductions phenomena , and the whole arena of alien visitation , has been phenomenal . its imprint is here to stay in my eyes

I predict that we will have a better understanding of what is going on in the future

I hope you're right

funbox