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Debunking Abduction Debunkers

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posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 06:34 PM
link   
I'm new here, can anyone tell me why my karma score plummets only when I post on the UFO AND ALIENS board?

My karma score was 90 this morning, three posts in here brought me down quite a bit, over twenty points. Why?

Who calculates that? And on what standard?




posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 06:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
Hi everybody, I'm new here, but not new to the subject. I didn't read this whole thread, but from what I have read it seems you are all pretty much in agreement on the topic of hypnosis in abduction research. I'm rather reluctant to join in this conversation because I'm not looking to be argumentative, and it seems like this is a discussion between young persons, which is terrific.

That being said, I think some things have been overlooked.

These abductors, be they extraterrestrial, interdimensional, spiritual, or temporal (and they may be all of the above), these aliens have the ability to affect the conscious memory of the abductee, making them largely forget their abduction experiences. Some remember the beginning or end of the alien contact, with little or no memory of anything in between, some have forgotten their experiences in toto. Often the aliens command them to forget what happened, and order them to go to sleep.

This sounds a lot like a form of hypnosis, but at a highly advanced level. So it is not surprising that even our less advanced understanding of hypnosis seems to an effective tool for recovering memories of these events.

These beings are advanced in many significant ways; intellectually, technologically, and apparently physiologically. They utilize telepathy, the ability to read thoughts instantly, control minds and induce paralysis,and manipulate memory on at least a conscious level. Thankfully, they are not always completely effective, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Many people remember certain moments of their abduction, with more memories that surface over time, or the event comes out through recurring dreams. These unaided memories are what lead them to UFO investigators.

It is important to note that hypnotic regression has yielded a great deal of detailed information into the abduction phenomenon, and highly corroborative information at that. We should be discussing what we learned from these investigators, and it is significant, rather than complaining about their methods.

To simply complain about hypnotic regression and ignore the alarming information that hypnotic regression has uncovered about alien abductions may be a very risky thing to do. Reckless, at least.

It's like not caring that the British are coming because you feel Paul Revere took the wrong route, or stole a pair of panties on his ride.




Actually, we don't know for certain that there are any "entities" involved. You are ascribing attributes and behaviors to beings that may not even exist.

More about memory than fragmentation may be part of the problem. Memory tests have shown memory to very unreliable. Memories that may be false recalled under hypnosis are no help at all. That simply adds another layer to the problem of memories being unreliable.

A discussion among young persons? On what is that assumption based?


Who is "we"? Some know, some don't.

Young persons? I base that assumption simply on the available evidence, the level of discussion and knowledge of the subject. If I'm mistaken, well...


Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it.

What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 06:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: debonkers
I'm new here, can anyone tell me why my karma score plummets only when I post on the UFO AND ALIENS board?

My karma score was 90 this morning, three posts in here brought me down quite a bit, over twenty points. Why?

Who calculates that? And on what standard?


Karma really has to do with what you put out into the universe.

en.wikipedia.org...
Now as a man is like this or like that,
according as he acts and according as he behaves, so will he be;
a man of good acts will become good, a man of bad acts, bad;
he becomes pure by pure deeds, bad by bad deeds;

Now divide that by your post to star ratio times your flags.

Ah, nobody cares.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:12 PM
link   

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
Hi everybody, I'm new here, but not new to the subject. I didn't read this whole thread, but from what I have read it seems you are all pretty much in agreement on the topic of hypnosis in abduction research. I'm rather reluctant to join in this conversation because I'm not looking to be argumentative, and it seems like this is a discussion between young persons, which is terrific.

That being said, I think some things have been overlooked.

These abductors, be they extraterrestrial, interdimensional, spiritual, or temporal (and they may be all of the above), these aliens have the ability to affect the conscious memory of the abductee, making them largely forget their abduction experiences. Some remember the beginning or end of the alien contact, with little or no memory of anything in between, some have forgotten their experiences in toto. Often the aliens command them to forget what happened, and order them to go to sleep.

This sounds a lot like a form of hypnosis, but at a highly advanced level. So it is not surprising that even our less advanced understanding of hypnosis seems to an effective tool for recovering memories of these events.

These beings are advanced in many significant ways; intellectually, technologically, and apparently physiologically. They utilize telepathy, the ability to read thoughts instantly, control minds and induce paralysis,and manipulate memory on at least a conscious level. Thankfully, they are not always completely effective, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Many people remember certain moments of their abduction, with more memories that surface over time, or the event comes out through recurring dreams. These unaided memories are what lead them to UFO investigators.

It is important to note that hypnotic regression has yielded a great deal of detailed information into the abduction phenomenon, and highly corroborative information at that. We should be discussing what we learned from these investigators, and it is significant, rather than complaining about their methods.

To simply complain about hypnotic regression and ignore the alarming information that hypnotic regression has uncovered about alien abductions may be a very risky thing to do. Reckless, at least.

It's like not caring that the British are coming because you feel Paul Revere took the wrong route, or stole a pair of panties on his ride.




Actually, we don't know for certain that there are any "entities" involved. You are ascribing attributes and behaviors to beings that may not even exist.

More about memory than fragmentation may be part of the problem. Memory tests have shown memory to very unreliable. Memories that may be false recalled under hypnosis are no help at all. That simply adds another layer to the problem of memories being unreliable.

A discussion among young persons? On what is that assumption based?


Who is "we"? Some know, some don't.

Young persons? I base that assumption simply on the available evidence, the level of discussion and knowledge of the subject. If I'm mistaken, well...


Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it.

What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:39 PM
link   

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
Hi everybody, I'm new here, but not new to the subject. I didn't read this whole thread, but from what I have read it seems you are all pretty much in agreement on the topic of hypnosis in abduction research. I'm rather reluctant to join in this conversation because I'm not looking to be argumentative, and it seems like this is a discussion between young persons, which is terrific.

That being said, I think some things have been overlooked.

These abductors, be they extraterrestrial, interdimensional, spiritual, or temporal (and they may be all of the above), these aliens have the ability to affect the conscious memory of the abductee, making them largely forget their abduction experiences. Some remember the beginning or end of the alien contact, with little or no memory of anything in between, some have forgotten their experiences in toto. Often the aliens command them to forget what happened, and order them to go to sleep.

This sounds a lot like a form of hypnosis, but at a highly advanced level. So it is not surprising that even our less advanced understanding of hypnosis seems to an effective tool for recovering memories of these events.

These beings are advanced in many significant ways; intellectually, technologically, and apparently physiologically. They utilize telepathy, the ability to read thoughts instantly, control minds and induce paralysis,and manipulate memory on at least a conscious level. Thankfully, they are not always completely effective, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Many people remember certain moments of their abduction, with more memories that surface over time, or the event comes out through recurring dreams. These unaided memories are what lead them to UFO investigators.

It is important to note that hypnotic regression has yielded a great deal of detailed information into the abduction phenomenon, and highly corroborative information at that. We should be discussing what we learned from these investigators, and it is significant, rather than complaining about their methods.

To simply complain about hypnotic regression and ignore the alarming information that hypnotic regression has uncovered about alien abductions may be a very risky thing to do. Reckless, at least.

It's like not caring that the British are coming because you feel Paul Revere took the wrong route, or stole a pair of panties on his ride.




Actually, we don't know for certain that there are any "entities" involved. You are ascribing attributes and behaviors to beings that may not even exist.

More about memory than fragmentation may be part of the problem. Memory tests have shown memory to very unreliable. Memories that may be false recalled under hypnosis are no help at all. That simply adds another layer to the problem of memories being unreliable.

A discussion among young persons? On what is that assumption based?


Who is "we"? Some know, some don't.

Young persons? I base that assumption simply on the available evidence, the level of discussion and knowledge of the subject. If I'm mistaken, well...


Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it.

What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.





Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it. What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in? What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.


If I offended you, that was not my intent. I'm reluctant to even post in this board any further, my karma score seems to be plummeting just by talking in here and I'm not sure why. But I might as well answer your questions.

What led me to think that your posts were written by young people?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from your conversation, and be precise as possible?

Well, come on, you say things like, "we don't even know if entities are involved."

It's simply hard to take someone like that seriously. We are way past that.

No offense intended, I assure you, but why do you even engage in lengthy discussions about beings that you doubt even exist? It seems odd, that's all.

But when you ask me to "cite testable evidence to support the claim ( that entities exist)"?

Well, that sounds to me like someone with little knowledge or understanding of the history of UFO sightings and alien contact. Or to be more precise, and you did ask me to be precise, it sounds like something a very young person would say. A child, to be precise.

No offense, again, you asked, twice. You said you really wanted to learn, so, I hope I helped.

Thank you again.
edit on 28-1-2015 by debonkers because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-1-2015 by debonkers because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-1-2015 by debonkers because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:46 PM
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Now my karma score is down another ten points simply for posting in the alien discussion board. What gives?

I haven't been rude, I was at 90 points hours ago, but after posting in here I'm down to 62 points. Does anyone know why? I am new here, and want to maintain a high rating, i take the concept of karma seriously.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: debonkers
I am 92



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:52 PM
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a reply to: debonkers

Take a look at this post by SkepticOverlord, where he talks about what Karma means and how it works here at ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:56 PM
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Maybe it's just me and dark humor -- I admit I had an unusually bad day today -- but I kinda get a kick out of imagining that merely posting in this forum forks your local karma.

ZR, I am biased. Because some of Jacobs' subjects in 'Secret Life' had elements in their accounts, and some word for word overlaps with my own (totally private - I bought the book because the title fit me so well. I had gone to get Mack's, which I'd bought twice and had vanished before I could read it. I had to read SL in the bookstore parking lot in my worry it would too.), I grant that some degree of validation I think.

Not validating aliens or any assumed agenda mind you, merely validating a 'synchronicity of the human experience' which I think is one of the most ephemeral yet strong elements we have as 'corroborative data' about this kind of experience.

So I think that is why I am resistant to dismissing the legitimacy of ALL his work based on his behaving basically criminally in the Emma example fairly recently. I read that book in -- I think it might have been early in 1995 sometime. And although even at the time in my journaling I griped that he was so paranoid, and that I didn't relate to everything, and that to a great degree it mostly just confused me (about whether my own memories, if they differed, were wrong, or incomplete), still it seemed to me at least at that time and in that publication, that he was fairly sane.

And I consider his current behavior to be basically not sane. One could argue that it's merely the behavior of an ethic-less cretin, but the whole motive behind it is so ridiculous and convoluted and irrational that to me, this is the most important 'tell' regarding what's going on. I DO suspect he has long if not always been somewhat biased, possibly leading, and so on, not for reasons against him personally but because this is the overwhelming norm in the practice not the exception. But I don't think he used to be not sane. I think that is a more recent occurrence, and that plus the associated fear drove the behavior.

But as noted, I'm biased. I think I am validating him because some comments of his subjects in a book in 1995 shocked and so slightly validated me by matching my own stuff. And I believe my own experiences are at least legit in terms of memory and communication (to the degree possible) (can't speak for any legitimacy beyond that, only honesty and as much clarity as I could bring it) (speaking of which some were not accurate memory but it took me 10+ years and other memories and contextual understanding to figure that out. That is part of the 'these experiences may come from different sources even with the same reporter' context I have for it all now). So I won't go on anymore on that but-he-used-to-be-sane point since clearly my own bias is what is driving how I choose to interpret his work. If I had no personal bias perhaps I'd feel as you do.

RC



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 07:57 PM
link   

originally posted by: debonkers
Now my karma score is down another ten points simply for posting in the alien discussion board. What gives?

I haven't been rude, I was at 90 points hours ago, but after posting in here I'm down to 62 points. Does anyone know why? I am new here, and want to maintain a high rating, i take the concept of karma seriously.


The answer is obvious: aliens.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: aynock
an interesting example in that the initially reported experience differed from the experience reported under hypnosis and the additional factor of betty hill's dreams

and we have two different descriptions of the abductors (if we count barney's conscious description as similar to betty's dream description)

i can't see any reason to take the hypnotically assisted description as more accurate than the other

That is a good point, I suppose.

Although, and I won't argue this much because it's not defendable really, I do think that anything happening in what is at the least a highly altered state and then subjectively remembered and communicated, may quite literally be perceived differently by those experiencing even the same events.

"How" differently is reasonable is a question. I don't have any kind of material that has "here's what changed or didn't in the Hill case" to look at, but that seems like it would be a worthwhile overview. There are some things that could change with recall or be added from dreams and I wouldn't really think that much of it, and some things that I would. I think I'd have to see the examples, which I am not saying you should provide (I should do research into this on my own, I just won't, since I generally avoid the topic aside from my cyclic conversation at ATS over the years).

Best,
RC



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:27 PM
link   

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
Hi everybody, I'm new here, but not new to the subject. I didn't read this whole thread, but from what I have read it seems you are all pretty much in agreement on the topic of hypnosis in abduction research. I'm rather reluctant to join in this conversation because I'm not looking to be argumentative, and it seems like this is a discussion between young persons, which is terrific.

That being said, I think some things have been overlooked.

These abductors, be they extraterrestrial, interdimensional, spiritual, or temporal (and they may be all of the above), these aliens have the ability to affect the conscious memory of the abductee, making them largely forget their abduction experiences. Some remember the beginning or end of the alien contact, with little or no memory of anything in between, some have forgotten their experiences in toto. Often the aliens command them to forget what happened, and order them to go to sleep.

This sounds a lot like a form of hypnosis, but at a highly advanced level. So it is not surprising that even our less advanced understanding of hypnosis seems to an effective tool for recovering memories of these events.

These beings are advanced in many significant ways; intellectually, technologically, and apparently physiologically. They utilize telepathy, the ability to read thoughts instantly, control minds and induce paralysis,and manipulate memory on at least a conscious level. Thankfully, they are not always completely effective, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Many people remember certain moments of their abduction, with more memories that surface over time, or the event comes out through recurring dreams. These unaided memories are what lead them to UFO investigators.

It is important to note that hypnotic regression has yielded a great deal of detailed information into the abduction phenomenon, and highly corroborative information at that. We should be discussing what we learned from these investigators, and it is significant, rather than complaining about their methods.

To simply complain about hypnotic regression and ignore the alarming information that hypnotic regression has uncovered about alien abductions may be a very risky thing to do. Reckless, at least.

It's like not caring that the British are coming because you feel Paul Revere took the wrong route, or stole a pair of panties on his ride.




Actually, we don't know for certain that there are any "entities" involved. You are ascribing attributes and behaviors to beings that may not even exist.

More about memory than fragmentation may be part of the problem. Memory tests have shown memory to very unreliable. Memories that may be false recalled under hypnosis are no help at all. That simply adds another layer to the problem of memories being unreliable.

A discussion among young persons? On what is that assumption based?


Who is "we"? Some know, some don't.

Young persons? I base that assumption simply on the available evidence, the level of discussion and knowledge of the subject. If I'm mistaken, well...


Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it.

What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.





Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it. What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in? What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.


If I offended you, that was not my intent. I'm reluctant to even post in this board any further, my karma score seems to be plummeting just by talking in here and I'm not sure why. But I might as well answer your questions.

What led me to think that your posts were written by young people?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from your conversation, and be precise as possible?

Well, come on, you say things like, "we don't even know if entities are involved."

It's simply hard to take someone like that seriously. We are way past that.

No offense intended, I assure you, but why do you even engage in lengthy discussions about beings that you doubt even exist? It seems odd, that's all.

But when you ask me to "cite testable evidence to support the claim ( that entities exist)"?

Well, that sounds to me like someone with little knowledge or understanding of the history of UFO sightings and alien contact. Or to be more precise, and you did ask me to be precise, it sounds like something a very young person would say. A child, to be precise.

No offense, again, you asked, twice. You said you really wanted to learn, so, I hope I helped.

Thank you again.


I'm quite familiar with the history of UFO lore. If you are, perhaps you can cite the testable evidence proving the existence of aliens (by which I assume you mean extraterrestrials) and their contact with humans. Please be aware that there is a huge difference between claims and testable evidence and only the latter proves that a claim is factual.



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:43 PM
link   
a reply to: RedCairo


'synchronicity of the human experience'

Can you elaborate on this?

I totally get where you are coming from with how you feel about Jacobs work. It holds personal meaning to you. I can also empathize that it would be a conflict for you. I'm not going to dismiss something that holds personal value to you. I'm not that much of a bastard!

For me it was Carlos Castenada. I think I read the whole series. They had a profound effect on me and I drew a lot of meaning from them. I was really disappointed but not surprised to learn he was a fraud. But you know what, bits and pieces of those books are still with me. Every time I see a bird fly by or some such thing, there is meaning there or a synchronicity of some sort. I owe that feeling to a fraud whose behavior was probably worse than Jacobs.

Behind the scenes, life at Castaneda’s compound on Pandora Avenue in Westwood was growing increasingly strange. At the core of the Nagual’s inner circle — which numbered up to two dozen people at any given time — was a group of intensely devoted young women who were all at one time or another romantically linked to Castaneda. They were referred to as “the witches.” Once they were lured into Castaneda’s orbit, he instructed them to change their names and cease all contact with their former friends and families. Then they were subjected to various methods of control: hypnosis, verbal and emotional abuse, mind games, bizarre rituals, dubious teachings, and sexual domineering. The women were forbidden from exhibiting any signs of illness, should they ever become sick. They began dressing in a similar style of black clothes and sporting the same short, dyed blonde haircuts. They each claimed to have been instructed by Don Juan Matus in the desert. Two of them were directed by Carlos to write their own books about these “apprenticeships.” The primary task of the witches, however, was recruiting new female members for the Nagual to share his unique magic with.
www.allthingscrimeblog.com...


edit on 28-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2015 @ 08:58 PM
link   

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: RedCairo


'synchronicity of the human experience'

Can you elaborate on this?

I totally get where you are coming from with how you feel about Jacobs work. It holds personal meaning to you. I can also empathize that it would be a conflict for you. I' not going to dismiss something that holds personal value to you. I'm not that much of a bastard!

For me it was Carlos Castenada. I think I read the whole series. They had a profound effect on me and I drew a lot of meaning from them. I was really disappointed but not surprised to learn he was a fraud. But you know what, bits and pieces of those books are still with me. Every time I see a bird fly by or some such thing, there is meaning there or a synchronicity of some sort. I owe that feeling to a fraud whose behavior was probably worse than Jacobs.

Behind the scenes, life at Castaneda’s compound on Pandora Avenue in Westwood was growing increasingly strange. At the core of the Nagual’s inner circle — which numbered up to two dozen people at any given time — was a group of intensely devoted young women who were all at one time or another romantically linked to Castaneda. They were referred to as “the witches.” Once they were lured into Castaneda’s orbit, he instructed them to change their names and cease all contact with their former friends and families. Then they were subjected to various methods of control: hypnosis, verbal and emotional abuse, mind games, bizarre rituals, dubious teachings, and sexual domineering. The women were forbidden from exhibiting any signs of illness, should they ever become sick. They began dressing in a similar style of black clothes and sporting the same short, dyed blonde haircuts. They each claimed to have been instructed by Don Juan Matus in the desert. Two of them were directed by Carlos to write their own books about these “apprenticeships.” The primary task of the witches, however, was recruiting new female members for the Nagual to share his unique magic with.
www.allthingscrimeblog.com...



I, too, was influenced by the Castaneda books and, even after I knew more about him, I think they influenced my perceptions while night-hiking on the Sonora desert--not that night-hiking on the desert requires any external influence to be a strange experience.

I lived in L.A. during the time Castaneda lived with these women and routinely drove within a few blocks of his house. Had I known he lived there, I probably would have knocked on his door. Certainly, I would have driven past often on the chance of seeing him. Probably a good thing I didn't know he lived there.

Who knows whether Castaneda had legitimate experiences early-on. That wouldn't discount the possibility that he became a cult leader later on. There's that wishful thinking again!



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 12:19 AM
link   

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
Now my karma score is down another ten points simply for posting in the alien discussion board. What gives?

I haven't been rude, I was at 90 points hours ago, but after posting in here I'm down to 62 points. Does anyone know why? I am new here, and want to maintain a high rating, i take the concept of karma seriously.


The answer is obvious: aliens.


LOL

Yikes!



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 12:22 AM
link   

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
Hi everybody, I'm new here, but not new to the subject. I didn't read this whole thread, but from what I have read it seems you are all pretty much in agreement on the topic of hypnosis in abduction research. I'm rather reluctant to join in this conversation because I'm not looking to be argumentative, and it seems like this is a discussion between young persons, which is terrific.

That being said, I think some things have been overlooked.

These abductors, be they extraterrestrial, interdimensional, spiritual, or temporal (and they may be all of the above), these aliens have the ability to affect the conscious memory of the abductee, making them largely forget their abduction experiences. Some remember the beginning or end of the alien contact, with little or no memory of anything in between, some have forgotten their experiences in toto. Often the aliens command them to forget what happened, and order them to go to sleep.

This sounds a lot like a form of hypnosis, but at a highly advanced level. So it is not surprising that even our less advanced understanding of hypnosis seems to an effective tool for recovering memories of these events.

These beings are advanced in many significant ways; intellectually, technologically, and apparently physiologically. They utilize telepathy, the ability to read thoughts instantly, control minds and induce paralysis,and manipulate memory on at least a conscious level. Thankfully, they are not always completely effective, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Many people remember certain moments of their abduction, with more memories that surface over time, or the event comes out through recurring dreams. These unaided memories are what lead them to UFO investigators.

It is important to note that hypnotic regression has yielded a great deal of detailed information into the abduction phenomenon, and highly corroborative information at that. We should be discussing what we learned from these investigators, and it is significant, rather than complaining about their methods.

To simply complain about hypnotic regression and ignore the alarming information that hypnotic regression has uncovered about alien abductions may be a very risky thing to do. Reckless, at least.

It's like not caring that the British are coming because you feel Paul Revere took the wrong route, or stole a pair of panties on his ride.




Actually, we don't know for certain that there are any "entities" involved. You are ascribing attributes and behaviors to beings that may not even exist.

More about memory than fragmentation may be part of the problem. Memory tests have shown memory to very unreliable. Memories that may be false recalled under hypnosis are no help at all. That simply adds another layer to the problem of memories being unreliable.

A discussion among young persons? On what is that assumption based?


Who is "we"? Some know, some don't.

Young persons? I base that assumption simply on the available evidence, the level of discussion and knowledge of the subject. If I'm mistaken, well...


Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it.

What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.





Are you one of the we's who know for certain that entities are involved? If so, please cite the testable evidence backing up your claim. I'd be interested in it. What available evidence led you to claim that this discussion involves young people? Can you describe the level of discussion on this topic that young people engage in and, in comparison, that not young people engage in? What knowledge of the subject has been missing from this conversation? Please be as precise as possible. I, for one, want to learn.


If I offended you, that was not my intent. I'm reluctant to even post in this board any further, my karma score seems to be plummeting just by talking in here and I'm not sure why. But I might as well answer your questions.

What led me to think that your posts were written by young people?

What knowledge of the subject has been missing from your conversation, and be precise as possible?

Well, come on, you say things like, "we don't even know if entities are involved."

It's simply hard to take someone like that seriously. We are way past that.

No offense intended, I assure you, but why do you even engage in lengthy discussions about beings that you doubt even exist? It seems odd, that's all.

But when you ask me to "cite testable evidence to support the claim ( that entities exist)"?

Well, that sounds to me like someone with little knowledge or understanding of the history of UFO sightings and alien contact. Or to be more precise, and you did ask me to be precise, it sounds like something a very young person would say. A child, to be precise.

No offense, again, you asked, twice. You said you really wanted to learn, so, I hope I helped.

Thank you again.


I'm quite familiar with the history of UFO lore.


I honestly don't think you are, or you wouldn't call it lore.

Thanks for your response.
edit on 29-1-2015 by debonkers because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 07:20 AM
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a reply to: ZetaRediculian


>> the 'synchronicity of the human experience'

Can you elaborate on this?

It's difficult to do justice without writing a book (often seems like that anyway), and maybe misleading since it means I have to simplify it into a side road for a sound bite. But I'll try.

To back up slightly: one of the recurring things in my life (which accompany esoteric experience enough that I consider them correlated) is a hightened degree of synchronicity. By heightened, I mean at some times, we're talking astronomically improbable things happening a dozen times a day. It's like reality just starts getting in sync with me at the center. Individual events are "wow that's a hell of a coincidence" but added together daily it's mind-numbing, and has a curious psyche effect. Real synchronicity works that way -- the sync of the patterns and events are unmistakeable eventually, but this actually includes a part that can be weird and humorous, like Loki is playing with your life. That's one kind of synchronicity.

The other, as I see it (but these correlate in my experience so bear with me) is a follow-on of the tendency of identities with the same biological filters -- e.g. humans -- to process energy into the same kind of symbolism, meaning it seems like "coincidence" -- synchronous happenstance -- that totally separate people in a totally separate experience actually report similar things. Maybe report similar objects, or circumstance, or events. Not identical; but 'with similarities.'

Being overly simple here, given the same dream element or rapid visual only subconsciously perceived, me and you might translate it into "a red car driving by" but 200 years ago someone might have translated it into "a running bull" or even the sun (for lack of any other model) or a low-flying flaming bird or god knows what. This could be an event, an object, anything.

The underlying energy/experience/perception might have been fundamentally the same, but humans have to translate energy (I'm not being woo here, though it's possible this abduction topic is rooted in woo, by technology and its nervous system effects even if not fundamentally. It's simply that everything is energy, even our 'physical reality'.) through their nervous system, and get things into a linear model in their brains, and then communicate them, and that means there is truly massive filtering and distortion going on from whatever that energy might have actually been into the eventual result of "he said it was like this."

But, in the case of humans, there's going to be more similarity to this end-result (whether we perceive a car or a running bull or a flaming low-flying giant bird) between you and me, than between, say, me and a rattlesnake. The frequencies we biologically do not filter out and hence try to understand, then translate into linear terms, then communicate, are similar between us, but not much shared with those life forms. Where we feel heat, if anything, or are oblivious, the snake might perceive an physical reality -- forms and behavior -- "and there were 5 mice, and 2 went that-a-way" -- because the thermal frequencies for us, are more primary sense for them, but to us we're oblivious. What differed isn't reality, but how the nervous system nearby perceived it.

Now, imagine an overall 'experience' a human has. Imagine that everything start to finish is very different from their normal reality, but their brain is *forced to translate it* into symbols they are capable of doing something with, or they'd either remember nothing or just be going, "Gee, there are amorpheous geometries floating around!" but thanks to our nervous systems we can say "Hey, that's a red car driving past" and chances are, Beings who have highly similar biological perception-translation-communication setups (e.g. all humans) are going to symbolize it, translate it, into something highly similar to each other; differences are likely to be cultural/era. We did not, for example, translate it into "and I felt warmer;" we all perceived something reddish, an object, in a certain kind of motion.

We do NOT translate into identical symbols, and this is where the 'find objective data' thing breaks down for me, doesn't exist and I don't try to make it exist as I think that's like the joke about looking for your keys a block from where you dropped them because the light is better there. Yes you can see there, but they aren't there! Yes, finding them in the dark is messy and scary and not easy but if you want to find them at all, that's where you gotta look, so I figure suck it up and deal with the reality of it or don't bother, that's where you dropped 'em so that's just the way it is. Someday, someone will bring light to that corner, we hope. In the meantime, we are on our knees in the dark.

(continued)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 07:21 AM
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(continued)

I suspect (from my own experiences but I think I might have read something about this with babies once in cognitive sciences stuff) that humans don't usually remember something until they have experienced it more than once, or plenty of elements that make it a reasonable conglomerate of 'things they already know.' There is a certain amount of experience, models and other-data that the brain must have for making sense of something before memory can "hold the pattern."

I have often felt in my anomalous experiences that this was going on -- that I could not remember because something was too foreign and could not be made linear enough to be 'brought up' to verbal level for communication and without that I couldn't quite grasp the memory. As the experience type repeated or other things in my life contributed to related data, I gradually started being able to recognize and remember pieces. Eventually I could actually perceive it and have a much more linear memory of it.

But there was a huge spectrum from "nothing" before that occurred and it wasn't about whether I had an experience, or whether what I perceived was real etc., but about what my brain was capable of doing with the 'energy' (vibrating energy at a certain frequency that my biological filter is trying to make sense of, let alone tell anybody else about after).

Based on this, I expect memory to be a huge variable going in, so I don't stress over it because I do not see a lot of memory and variance issues as discrediting of the underlying experiences. If ability to remember and doing so in spots and incompletely with some things symbolized or forgotten, well, if it varies with one individual for one kind of experience (like me noted above), it's certainly going to vary with 'tons of' individuals describing tons of different kinds of experiences.

When a human mind does not expect something (e.g. because it's totally outside their belief systems or the norm) and especially if things are in motion/change around them, they can literally be utterly oblivious to something right in front of them (obvious and totally non-woo example: www.theinvisiblegorilla.com... ).

Did the experience not happen for the people who didn't see it? Did the people who saw it hallucinate it, dream it, lie about it, misunderstand what could possibly have happened? And this is simple physical stuff in the known world!

So now imagine when we're talking about something that at best, might be an environment that is "significantly different from the norm" for a person, and the person might -- through brain chemicals or technology or mere side-effects of the experience, be in an incredibly altered state -- and we have no idea how different the reality elements might be from what we know -- expecting the "reported experience" to be identical between people I think is wholly unreasonable.

Experience is distinct (to the individual) but usually not unique (due to similarities of the species). So it is the latter I am looking for. I'm an archetypes fan, it's one of my meditation focuses, so this resonates with me as symbolism and synchronicity are key in that.

In UFOlogy, if that gorilla experiment were, let's say, 5 different people reporting an experience -- 3 'having' it and 2 'witnessing' it -- it would seem contradictory and ridiculous. One person says it was about tossing a sphere into the air repeatedly and something went past, while another said it was about being inside something like a suit and walking around, while things were flying through the air, while another says that there was this modern sporting event with balls flying and then a wild animal went through the middle of it, and another person only noticed the sporting event which involved things transferred between people through the air. Nobody would believe any of that meant anything... certainly it would seem like none of this related to each other... and this is of a real, totally objective event that we can see is factual and easy.

Yet the arguments that 'anomalous experiencers' are given are things that cannot even be defended for something incredibly physical, objective, obvious, that we can all see in front of us and on video. Culturally we attempt to hold 'ufology contact' reports to criteria that even real-world easy stuff by those same merits might fail, due to even the smallest amount of something unusual or unexpected.

(continued)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 07:22 AM
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(continued)

What I see from anomalous experience reports is synchronicity -- is coincidence of patterns (to include patterns-of-events) and symbols -- that is to say, I recognize the similar structures that indicate that the humans probably did experience something with some similar elements, but their unique symbolism and communication and their unique degree of and type of memory, tend to make the actual reports different from one another.

But if you back up and turn down the volume, back to the car-symbol, you see, "Ah, so something that was in motion, horizontally, off the ground but not very high, and reddish in color, is what you experienced," and suddenly the sun and the flaming bird and the red car are seen as the synchronous experiences that they are.

Now, there is danger in this; between the vagaries of the english language and the fact that reality actually has a surprisingly limited number of forms and dynamics (of which infinite detail distracts us from noticing) it's certainly possible to find or create 'correlations' in symbols, in patterns of motion, etc. where there are none. But again, this is where the keys are, although it's nearly in the dark.

Here's an example. This may not have any relationship to UFOlogy (who knows?).

A. In the book 'Into the Fringe' Karla is describing the experience of someone close to her:

>> After getting back in bed, David woke again a while later, feeling, he said, as if he were oscillating violently, as if his body were about to explode or disintegrate into its atomic particles. “It felt really scary,” he said,”like if that sensation went on much longer, I was literally going to come apart.”

B. About 15 years prior to reading that I wrote in my journal about being in bed (awake with light on, getting ready to go to sleep) when I was 'hit' with something that felt almost like a weapon it was so sudden, and a whole series of experience that followed. But about the initial experience:

>>It got stronger, harder, like my whole body was being shaken by the vibrato, and my body began to feel as if every single molecule in it was moving in time with it. [. . .] I compared it suddenly, as it was happening, with a scene from the movie Lawnmower Man, where he kills these guys by sort of “shaking them into marbles.” It felt pretty much exactly like that! — except… well, much smaller marbles.

This is what I call an example of synchronous human experience.

A. Again from that book, same guy by the way, described getting ‘shocked’ and then being basically empty (“unplugged”) as if he were physically present, and his mind just barely-there, but the important 'rest' of him was gone somehow like he was empty.

B. What followed on my experience (above) was what was almost a reverse-OBE: *I* stayed with the body, but super-simplistic mental abilities then like I couldn't think right, while "all the REST of me" was... somewhere else.

Not word for word the same but my gut recognizes this; it's the same pattern and likely based on a very similar experience. That's bizarre. Pretty distinct and not at all common.

When I first started sharing my experiences online in Compuserve (circa '94) (where I posted them right to the resident skeptic lol), many of the things I described, elements of it that I thought were quite unique or distinct, tons of people would go, "Oh yeah, so what, lots of descriptions of that in the past."

Now to them, I was just a person on the internet. Maybe making it all up. But to me, the fact that someone ELSE had EVER described such a thing, let alone in detail, let alone a LOT of someones -- to the point where I was eye-rollingly-unoriginal as it turns out! -- blew my mind totally. Even if everything I experienced were "just a dream" it would STILL be weird and amazing that other people were having the same one.

I was left going, "But -- but wait! I mean... er, doesn't that seem relevant? If all these people are having that same experience, if my reporting this experience in some areas makes everybody yawn at the old-news, then why is the experience in other areas treated like some impossibly weird thing that must mean I'm making it up? Isn't there a degree of 'empirical evidence' when pretty distinctive unusual experiences are described by completed unrelated people?"

The odds of two totally unrelated people with ordinary lives suddenly describing having bizarre experiences where they are immersed in something like blue jello (but actually to me oddly thin-dryish and breathable and the color of a pool, had to get more experience before those additional elements seemed clear), there isn't even a probability% number we can put on this.

I think the only way that someone reasonable can dismiss this is by them thinking: one of those people is lying, and the other person is just creative/dreaming. When there are quite a few people with something so similar, that sure gets more unlikely. When I am personally one of them, it changes for me: obviously, I know what's legit to me, though nobody else does.

(continued)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 07:22 AM
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(continued)

Does it prove anything? Nothing. Does it testify to aliens? Er, no. Although it's often found in accounts that include 'other people' who our culture 'interprets as alien.'

But it does indicate a commonality in human experience. I think these are the "clue points" that we should be looking into -- not expecting anything identical -- to flesh out a little more understanding. They are symbols with correlations, resonance, that indicate that a similar human experience, with unknown variables, has been translated through a distinct individual psychology for reporting.

We don't know what it is or what it means yet. We don't need to know. The first thing is basically looking for patterns in the noise. There are concomitants to these experiences, and things happening before and after them, which you can also find patterns in. When you have a giant field of noise and you find repeating patterns, that's where your data is.

So then you can focus in on the things that loosely model the repeating patterns, leaving 50+% of the rest of it to be white noise until it isn't, and finally 'we have something to study' -- because while the details might be distinct to the individual, suddenly we are at least probably talking about something similar enough to be approximately the same thing.

At that point we aren't obsessing on whether someone is crazy. vs. lying, we're obsessing on "let's go ask those 400 people who reported 'blue gel' to tell us everything they can recall about it." And doing that might lead us to a vastly greater understanding about that element and what is immediately around it -- in terms of environment and experience.

And that might lead to more solid 'patterns' found in the concomitants for example.

We would skip the "oooh it's an alien is he lying?" and just move on to "Ok, enough people talk about blue gel -ish that there's likely something to this, let's see how the human-experience of it varies, and see what more we can learn in the process."

Of course that might be useful and productive for greater understanding so as a public-domain layman-research strategy it's unlikely to be employed.

So: patterns in the noise. Synchronicity of human experience suggests a pattern, and the more people, the more coincidence, the moreso.

RC

PS too many words. I'm sleepy that always makes it worse.



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