Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Scdfa

Science explains the natural world, the scientific method is the best means we have at coming to a good description of nature. I would argue that science should still win and it doesn't have to be orwellian, unless of course you are suggesting using logic and testable means to verify data isn't good enough. If that is the case which I am not saying is (or you are trying to say in any way shape or form) what method is best used, psychics?

I think he's suggesting that we skip science and go directly to unquestioned belief.

Of course he is. He lashed out at me when I asked him to just consider he might have been mislead into his beliefs which are without good, valid, evidence. I worry about people so willing to believe something with such flimsy stuff on offer. They're ripe for rip off.

originally posted by: game over man
If there is a scientific explanation for Alien Abductions, shouldn't we be able to test it? Shouldn't we be able to subdue to someone into this state of mind and see if they actually hallucinate an Alien Abduction?

It's been done with "The God Helmet".

Dr. Jacobs thinks all the factual explanations are just pulled out of the air as explanations and don't really deal with the actual phenomenon.

Dr. Jacobs is a known fraud and charlatan. You'd be better off listening to Dr. Scholes.

a reply to: JadeStar

i don't know if persinger's helmet quite lives up to his claims - from your link:

The foundations of his theory have been criticised in the scientific press,[5] anecdotal reports by journalists,[6] academics[7][8] and documentarists[9] have been mixed and the effects reported by Persinger have not been independently replicated. The only attempt at replication published in the scientific literature reported a failure to reproduce Persinger's effects and the authors proposed that the suggestibility of participants, improper blinding of participants or idiosyncratic methodology could explain Persinger's results.

originally posted by: draknoir2
Not surprising. Hundreds of years and they have yet to get to the bottom of the leprechaun situation.

I am still very hard at work trying to get my hands on their pots of gold. This historically involves passing out in the woods after drinking too much alcohol, but I'm willing to put in the effort. For science.

originally posted by: aynock
a reply to: JadeStar

i don't know if persinger's helmet quite lives up to his claims - from your link:

The foundations of his theory have been criticised in the scientific press,[5] anecdotal reports by journalists,[6] academics[7][8] and documentarists[9] have been mixed and the effects reported by Persinger have not been independently replicated. The only attempt at replication published in the scientific literature reported a failure to reproduce Persinger's effects and the authors proposed that the suggestibility of participants, improper blinding of participants or idiosyncratic methodology could explain Persinger's results.

Persinger's rebuttal, FWIW:

www.innerworlds.50megs.com...

a reply to: draknoir2

judging from first hand reports i've read the effects don't seem to be life changing - certainly not in line with persinger's various claims

more research would be needed to move his ideas into the area of 'science' imo

a reply to: aynock

judging from first hand reports i've read the effects don't seem to be life changing -

Just wait until Windows10 comes out.

"We used a DOS-based operating system (Windows 95) and the program ran stably in a DOS shell." (link) The Swedish team assumed that running Persinger's hardware in a DOS shell would be the same as running it under DOS, as is done in Persinger's lab. The fact that the program was stable does not mean the the output from their computers was correct.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Just wait until Windows10 comes out.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Scdfa
I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.

In relation to myself the above statement is absolutely untrue.
I have never stated that alien contact is not real, not in this thread or anywhere else including real life. I have no idea what the governments 'goal' is as I'm not security cleared to such heights, as I assume you are not either.
I have made no assertions either way regarding claims of aliens, but you have made many. I have asked you what your evidence is, nowhere have I said you are wrong, I have merely questioned your unyielding assertions that aliens are visiting Earth.

I had left you to this thread but since your brought my name up with such scurrilous claims I felt compelled to reply, if only to the other good members of ATS reading this.
I am undecided regarding aliens/UFO's, certainly nothing has drawn me to believe so far in my life. I am happy for anyone to believe whatever they like based on whatever standard of evidence/personal experience may have shaped their perspective.
So please do read my posts/post history if you wish, and you will see that Scdfa's rather personally attacking claims are indeed unfounded.

Kind regards,

You have intentionally mischaracterized my position. You have even resorted to creating phony posts and attributing them to me. I called you on it and named the specific non-quotes you falsely attributed to me. This raises questions about your motivations not ours.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: funbox

2. does this thread and its content of people need first hand experience of the abduction phenomena yes/no

yes absolutely. I'm not sure if you are implying that once someone has such an experience that they would then suddenly believe? There are quite a few people that have had sleep paralysis and have seen and experienced beings. They also understand that its sleep paralysis! I have many episodes myself but I never have seen an alien. I have seen people. I had one episode where there was a demon thing. Wait, let me regress myself...it WAS an alien and he took me on his ship and raped me. So now I am a full blown experiencer. Done.

here is another thing I notice. Everyone is quick to point out that SP is not an adequate answer to this but then proceed to describe cases that are identical to SP. They aren't all sleeping except in 99% of cases where they are. They don't all remember while under hypnosis 56% recall their abduction from dreams! So I was really abducted then because I can't tell you how many alien dreams I have had. I also fly to because I recall doing so in my dreams but lets not bring up the time I was running through the park in my underwear.

no I think yours would be better in the stone cold light of morning , probably somewhere after your third coffee , but hopefully whilst you're not infiltrating Lockheed.

does sleep paralysis come before or after R>E>M sleep,? cant have the hallucinations without being in rem,and if your in rem you wouldn't be awake to realise you was paralysed, could the fear generated by this realisation bring on powerful hallucinations of alien beings?

Jenny Randles ascribed to this hypothesis in her book 'Sixth Sense: Psychic Powers and Your Five Senses ', years ago, albeit she tried to attribute way to many phenomena to this golden period between deep sleep and waking, I fail to see how sleep paralysis can create hallucinations of being transported through a window or ceiling and then having your surrounding completely changed ,your body examined and replaced back in bed

are these scenarios reported by sleep paralysed people too ?

ide like to talk more about my experiences with hallucinations , but unfortunately t&c

but ill say that hallucinations or at least the ones I've experienced are in no way as good a quality as reality , there's a fuzziness to them, like a poor overlay(if two entwined, reality + unseen/imaginary) , only fully internal hallucinatory experiences( unconsciousness or trance*) are of top quality, but awareness of body is reduced (as in dreams and lucid dreaming)
no, I think the different states of sleep have their limitations ,be its sleep paralysis, night terrors, false awakening( which are great for initiating lucid dreaming, if you can make the connection before you really awaken)

all these, have their patterns of variability between people. we don't see demonic possession , or poltergeist activity on the same scale with the same consistency in details , yet the abduction phenomena is lumped into the same arena , even one which contains leprechauns LD , ironically which, share the same iconic stickiness as Ronald mc Donald and the greys

too many shoes, too many feet, no size chart

funbox

a reply to: funbox

does sleep paralysis come before or after R>E>M sleep,? cant have the hallucinations with being in rem,and if your in rem you wouldn't be awake to realise you was paralysed, could the fear generated by this realisation bring on powerful hallucinations of alien beings?

(for me) Sleep paralysis starts immediately in that first moment of falling asleep. All I can say is the "loud buzzing" sound is the most prominent part of this for me. That and the overwhelming feeling of being paralyzed. Those two things are the most striking part of the experience. As far as the "hallucination" part, I really cant tell if my eyes are opened or closed BUT I definitely know when they are open and I am truly awake. The part that's odd is that I cant tell while I'm in the state until I notice something out of place and then I am right back in bed frozen. SOB! I definitely hear things. The only beings I see are people that are supposed to be there except for one time where there was this feeling of the presence of some demon thing and things were flying around the room but that memory is fuzzy and I may not be remembering it correctly. I have definitely felt like I was floating before maybe more like tumbling.

I probably don't see Aliens because I was aware what it was early on. I was in college when they first started and I was studying psych so I definitely came across it. The "buzzing" is really loud and definitely feels electrical or something not natural. You definitely could think that an alien is zapping you. Perhaps if that is your first thought, then maybe aliens would naturally follow? I really don't know. My first time I thought I was having a seizure.

Jenny Randles ascribed to this hypothesis in her book 'abductions' years ago, albeit she tried to attribute way to many phenomena to this golden period between deep sleep and waking, I fail to see how sleep paralysis can create hallucinations of being transported through a window or ceiling and then having your surrounding completely changed ,your body examined and replaced back in bed

are these scenarios reported by sleep paralysed people too ?

All I can say is that all the elements seem to be there. Its a really strange state. When I read about an abduction account and it starts with "I was in bed and then there was loud buzzing and I was paralyzed" well I am certain its sleep paralysis unless aliens zap you and paralyze you. Even the abduction questionnaire asks the very question. "Have you ever awoken found yourself paralyzed with beings in your room." So if you come across this question in the abduction study and you aren't aware of SP and this has happened, you may suspect aliens at this point. And why are you answering the alien abduction questionnaire in the first place? So I suppose your suspicions have now been confirmed.

Now consider that you want to pursue this matter further and decide to recover some lost memories of your weird alien encounter. Now if there really is no memory to recover (not that hypnosis would help anyway) and hypnosis can produce false memory, the rest of the scenario could be created.

a reply to: funbox
here you go

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens

When asked to relate his or her abduction experience, the modal
“abductee” begins by mentioning an (apparent) episode of sleep
paralysis. A nonpathological phenomenon, sleep paralysis occurs
when the cognitive and physiologic components of rapid eye
movement (REM) sleep become temporarily desynchronized
(Hufford, 1982; Spanos et al., 1993).That is, the person awakens
from REM sleep and becomes conscious of the full-body paralysis
that normally accompanies REM. Moreover, many people will
experience hypnopompic (“upon awakening”) hallucinations during
these episodes. Hallucinations vary, but often include electrical
tingling sensations throughout the body, feelings of levitation, loud
buzzing sounds, flashing lights, and most strikingly, visual hallucinations
of figures hovering near one’s bed. The full episode
seldom lasts more than a few seconds or minutes, after which the
paralysis wanes and the hallucinations vanish. The modal “abductee”
often assumes that something must have happened after
the onset of the sleep episode but prior to full awakening. They
seek the aid of a hypnotherapist to help understand their anomalous
experiences, and it is during hypnotic regression sessions that
they “recall” memories of having been abducted (i.e., being taken
into space ships, sexually experimented on by aliens, etc.).

a reply to: Scdfa Did a bit of research since you decided to mock my spelling (which I am the first to admit I am not the sharpest chisel in the tool shed) and came across this
Spelled and Spelt
The verb to spell most commonly means to write or name the letters that form (a word) in correct sequence.

To spell is one of those verbs with both an irregular form and a regular form. (See the table below for some others.) The past tense and the past participle can be written as either spelled or spelt. However, they are not interchangeable, especially in the US.
Americans Demand Spelled
In America, spelled dominates. The use of spelt as the past tense or past participle of to spell is considered a spelling mistake by many. It will certainly annoy a fair proportion of your readers.
Brits Prefer Spelt
Outside America, spelt is more common, but spelled is generally accepted. (This is almost certainly a result of American influence spreading.)

Since I'm not in the USA I feel I should at least be given a bit of poetic licence. That came from a site called the grammar monster dot com. There are hyphens and stuff in it as well if you want to be bothered looking it up.

So I guess the term start ar5e comes to mind (I am not sure though if I am referring to myself or to you) cheers : )

And to keep this on topic. I still would like to see the alien ashtray or cigarette lighter. The more I look into this sort of stuff the more the probability blows out. You know 1/ this multiplied by 1/ that multiplied by 1/ the next thing. And it seems that there is a smaller and smaller chance of there being intelligent life.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

interesting

ill retort after ive had some sleep , fingers crossed for some enlightening paralysis , or some lucid shenanigans

bedbox

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Scdfa

Science explains the natural world, the scientific method is the best means we have at coming to a good description of nature. I would argue that science should still win and it doesn't have to be orwellian, unless of course you are suggesting using logic and testable means to verify data isn't good enough. If that is the case which I am not saying is (or you are trying to say in any way shape or form) what method is best used, psychics?

I think he's suggesting that we skip science and go directly to unquestioned belief.

Of course he is. He lashed out at me when I asked him to just consider he might have been mislead into his beliefs which are without good, valid, evidence. I worry about people so willing to believe something with such flimsy stuff on offer. They're ripe for rip off.

I hope you are not talking about me The whole quote below is a response with my name on the top I don't believe in psychics as much as I believe that the scientific method works better like a lot better. I won't comment on what you had to say because I am not sure that is/was directed my way, I was confused when I read that retort that was directed my way from Scdfa.

"originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Scdfa

Science explains the natural world, the scientific method is the best means we have at coming to a good description of nature. I would argue that science should still win and it doesn't have to be orwellian, unless of course you are suggesting using logic and testable means to verify data isn't good enough. If that is the case which I am not saying is (or you are trying to say in any way shape or form) what method is best used, psychics?


I think he's suggesting that we skip science and go directly to unquestioned belief."

a reply to: ZetaRediculian
I think your assessment of the phenomenon is very accurate. Having had a seizure myself this year it is the most terrifying and painful experience possible. Being paralysed while conscious and not hallucinating is terrifying enough.

I dont think its a coincidence that alien abductions started being reported suddenly after aliens became pop culture. The public is heavily influenced by media and hypochondriasis.

That said I do believe some abductions are air force psychology experiments.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

a reply to: draknoir2

a reply to: JadeStar

I checked out all your links. Doesn't explain the phenomenon to me. Sure some cases, but it would catch on by now. Manifesting an Alien Abduction of Grey Aliens teleporting you through your wall, ceiling, or window onto a craft to have experiments done on you to be returned back, people would be doing this all the time for fun. Don't underestimate how crazy people are, especially drug users. Sorry if that sounds funny, but you know people would.

My experience happened when I was awake by the way. If Grey Aliens are ever proven to exist, then I would believe my encounter to be real. Until then or if they ever make a return visit, then I say I imagined everything. However it seems too random to have imagined, as I've never imagined anything like that before, or since.

Just to throw this out there, why would you question the "evidence" of Grey Aliens, why is it a surprise to you that an advanced lifeform's evidence comes across as make believe or mythology? Neil Degrasse Tyson and Michio Kaku have both mentioned that Alien Technology would seem like magic. So how is that any different than the phenomenon we are studying?

originally posted by: game over man

I checked out all your links. Doesn't explain the phenomenon to me. Sure some cases, but it would catch on by now. Manifesting an Alien Abduction of Grey Aliens teleporting you through your wall, ceiling, or window onto a craft to have experiments done on you to be returned back, people would be doing this all the time for fun. Don't underestimate how crazy people are, especially drug users. Sorry if that sounds funny, but you know people would.

You might appreciate the following excellent thread as you sort through your experience:

Alien Abduction: An astral phenomenon?

Neil Degrasse Tyson and Michio Kaku have both mentioned that Alien Technology would seem like magic.

What about the possibility of the obverse: Maybe magic can seem like alien technology.

a reply to: The GUT

Ha! I'm one of the first commenters in that thread. Absolutely still agree with an Astral explanation. I too have experienced sleep paralysis throughout my life numerous times with waking up paralyzed with a black mass pushing down on me. I still have brief paralysis when I'm sleeping but no hallucinations. Still my experience in the backyard 5-6 years ago was really weird and I don't know why it happened.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Scdfa
I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.

In relation to myself the above statement is absolutely untrue.
I have never stated that alien contact is not real, not in this thread or anywhere else including real life. I have no idea what the governments 'goal' is as I'm not security cleared to such heights, as I assume you are not either.
I have made no assertions either way regarding claims of aliens, but you have made many. I have asked you what your evidence is, nowhere have I said you are wrong, I have merely questioned your unyielding assertions that aliens are visiting Earth.

I had left you to this thread but since your brought my name up with such scurrilous claims I felt compelled to reply, if only to the other good members of ATS reading this.
I am undecided regarding aliens/UFO's, certainly nothing has drawn me to believe so far in my life. I am happy for anyone to believe whatever they like based on whatever standard of evidence/personal experience may have shaped their perspective.
So please do read my posts/post history if you wish, and you will see that Scdfa's rather personally attacking claims are indeed unfounded.

Kind regards,

Sorry, but I stand by my opinion. And I am entitled to it. Furthermore, your insistence on labeling me a "believer" is scurrilous.