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Debunking Abduction Debunkers

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posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 09:41 PM
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originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Scdfa

Science explains the natural world, the scientific method is the best means we have at coming to a good description of nature. I would argue that science should still win and it doesn't have to be orwellian, unless of course you are suggesting using logic and testable means to verify data isn't good enough. If that is the case which I am not saying is (or you are trying to say in any way shape or form) what method is best used, psychics?


I think he's suggesting that we skip science and go directly to unquestioned belief.




posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 09:42 PM
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a reply to: The GUT

I have been thinking about this video since you posted it in that other thread. Definite classic. Very cool.

I don't know what to make of it.

Maybe a little of this?

Solomon Asch experiment (1958)A study of conformity

In 1951 social psychologist Solomon Asch devised this experiment to examine the extent to which pressure from other people could affect one's perceptions. In total, about one third of the subjects who were placed in this situation went along with the clearly erroneous majority.


Hypnotism does not exist, say the experts


When the Home Office review team gets down to work, it will have to reckon with the views of Dr Wagstaff, Mr Kreskin and other sceptics, who insist that stage hypnosis is not a question of meddling in people's subconscious but is more a question of audience credulity.
...
Dr Heap also cited research by Karen Olness at the University of Minnesota, in which children had successfully increased the concentration of a particular antibody, immunoglobulin A, in their saliva following hypnotic suggestion.

There were other studies, he said, showing that if hypnotised subjects were told that their hand was getting hot, the measured temperature of the hand would indeed rise.

Dr Wagstaff, however, insists: "The whole concept is a fantasy, a cultural invention." He says that people want to believe that some simple route exists to the troubled, hidden corners of their mind.

That, and the desire to show off, according to Dr Wagstaff, is what drives people to take part in stage hypnosis, and from the moment they reach the stage they are led on by the pressure of the situation and the power of suggestion.

edit on 12-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: Ridhya

Thank you for pointing out, in detail, that this so-called scientific study was pseudo-science at best.The problem is that most people are not educated in science and properly conducted studies and will ignore the accurate points you've made. Again, I compare this to religious fundamentalists and the pseudo-science coming out of the so-called Institute for Creation Research. Anyone with a background in science knows that it's bogus but those who don't really don't know that and, being true believers, refuse to learn about real science. They're caught in a loop and are being played like banjos.


More Orwellian double speak from you.

First you say "it's not real until science says so!"

Then you say, "of course science won't investigate it because it's not real!"

Then you repeat. Circular logic.

It's a catch-22. A ride on the denier merry-go-round, no matter how long you ride it, it doesn't go anywhere.


I respectfully request that you not use quotation marks around posts using your words attributed to me. I have never said, "It's not real until science says so!" Those are your words.

I have never said, "Of course science won't investigate it because it's not real!" Again, those are your words.

I'm sorry you didn't understand my post. I think I made it quite clear that scientists whose careers depend on credibility and often depend on grants are naturally loathe to associate themselves with con-artists, crackpots, and assorted loonies with a few rational people sprinkled into the mix. They're also loathe to put themselves in a position of being called government disinformation agents if they don't agree with the teachings of the Church of ET.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 09:47 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine


funbox



I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.


Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.


All that UFO means is unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean a craft piloted by extraterrestrials or reptoids from Area 51. Of course there are unidentified flying objects.

Find a crashed "saucer" and the body of an extraterrestrial or reptoid from Area 51 and the scientists will flock to it.

But don't expect a scientist whose career depends on grants to jump at the chance to hang out with and be associated with a bunch of con artists, delusional people, and crackpots of assorted types who drown out the relatively few rational people with a serious interest in the subject. Don't expect a reputable scientist to be willing to ignore the scientific method and declare Jimmy's videotape of his hypnosis session to be testable evidence of extraterrestrials visiting earth and stealing sperm from members of bowling teams. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake her career on Martha's channeled communications from Zorkon that's she's written in code on 4.786 pages. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake his career on a blob of light in a photograph that Ralph and Sheena swear is spacecraft from Orion that buzzed their house. Don't expect a reputable scientist to risk being called a government disinformation agent for not coming to the same conclusion you want him/her to reach.
O

Yes, exactly like I told you, science has failed you. If you are waiting for "science" to investigate the alien situation, you'll wait a long, long time. Oh, wait you already have, seventy years and counting! How's that working out for ya?


Actually, I'm not waiting at all. There probably isn't any "alien situation". I'm also not going to join the Church of ET.


You reveal more here than you probably intended. For how long now have you been crying that " no studies or findings count until science says so! We need a real scientist to investigate alien contact!"

But here you reveal how you real feel, "I'm not waiting for science to study it because it isn't real anyway."

Does this mean you'll stop crying out for science now?


Again, I'm respectfully requesting that you stop making up quotes and attributing them to me.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 10:43 PM
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a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Seeing as how hypnotism is still little understood, I took Kreskin's claims in that area with a grain of salt. He might be right, but a deeper digging has me convinced that "hypnotism," especially in the hands of an adept who leans towards sociopathy can be a very powerful tool that can affect an individual on the subconscious level.

I had planned on doing a major thread about it but, hey, I've started living again! Should be working now, but y'all braniacs sucked me back in for a minute. Marvelous work you've been doing on the boards, btw.


I do have some, imo, fascinating materials on hypnotism that I will drop somewhere where it's more appropriate to the topic.



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 11:34 PM
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a reply to: The GUT
IMO, Hypnosis, meditation, the zone, watching tv. They are all variations of the same thing. I don't think hypnosis is really all that mysterious but I do think it is something but no different then the other things I listed. I am pretty sure that when you are relaxed that you will more open to suggestion. This is what Aquino was talking about with his alpha waves.

Im not sure about the "non existence" of hypnotism. I think what Kresin is saying is that the existence of hypnosis is a suggestion itself. Apparently Jacobs was able to hypnotize people over instant messenger. Maybe he would have had a better career as a mentalist?


I do have some, imo, fascinating materials on hypnotism that I will drop somewhere where it's more appropriate to the topic.

I don't know what better topic there could be! Plus I already ruined the thread anyway!



posted on Jan, 12 2015 @ 11:58 PM
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a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Here's a start and maybe you can help. Can't seem to find the full episode from the Discovery Channel show:

Deception with Keith Barry: Black Ops

I have it recorded, but haven't found it online yet.

The following vid is of an interesting Ted talk he did.

Keith has written about some of his discoveries/epiphanies and those articles are worth searching out, but the Blacks Ops vid is definitely worth a look see.

Was it all real? Hard to ultimately say, but there's enough in that episode to really get the brain cranking and giving MK-ULTRA a second look. The drugs might have been somewhat of a bust, but maybe we should have been looking at the hypnotists.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 12:52 AM
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If there is a scientific explanation for Alien Abductions, shouldn't we be able to test it? Shouldn't we be able to subdue to someone into this state of mind and see if they actually hallucinate an Alien Abduction?

Dr. Jacobs thinks all the factual explanations are just pulled out of the air as explanations and don't really deal with the actual phenomenon. I think if sleep paralysis manifests an Alien Abduction, then anyone should be able to do this. Why isn't that the case? Where is the proof that people can hallucinate an Alien Abduction on their own will by staying up for a few days?
edit on 13-1-2015 by game over man because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 12:58 AM
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a reply to: The GUT

This is very interesting and well worth exploring. Let us know if you find the link to the other video.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 01:39 AM
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a reply to: game over man


I think if sleep paralysis manifests an Alien Abduction, then anyone should be able to do this.

I have had many SP episodes but never an alien abduction or even an alien. Mine always started with a very loud buzzing noise like my whole body was electrified. The first time it happened, I thought it was a seizure. That's because I was working in a facility where people had seizures. So the noise and I cant move. I can hear my wife in the next room, I try to move and call for help. I can look around the room and see my room as it is. I can have conversations and even get up and walk around only to find out I am still in bed paralyzed. I don't like the feeling at all and can snap out of it. I did learn to relax and observe.

A few years back I was watching and reading a lot about abductions and had the bright idea that I could induce one during SP. Never happened and I stopped having them ,I think because in a change of medication.


The Construction of Space Alien Abduction Memories

The Ordinary Nature of Alien Abduction Memories

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens





edit on 13-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 03:14 AM
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originally posted by: noeltrotsky
The limited sample size sure does limit the RELIABILITY of the conclusion. It doesn't invalidate the test or the questions. However, as I discussed, in the REAL WORLD there simply aren't 50,000 people stepping forward with claims of alien abduction to get examined by one group, Mufon. YET AGAIN, you apply a method of examination that isn't possible in the REAL WORLD.

Surely if FOUR MILLION Americans have been abducted, as extrapolated by believers, then it shouldnt be too difficult to get a thousand, let alone a few hundred? Yet they only got 50. And again I find myself repeating, their control group was half the size of the test group.

Standard tests have minimum 1000 surveys. And has been pointed out, random population sample. I know that wasnt the aim of this test, but then yes that fact calls into question their conclusions.





originally posted by: The GUT
Seeing as how hypnotism is still little understood, I took Kreskin's claims in that area with a grain of salt. He might be right, but a deeper digging has me convinced that "hypnotism," especially in the hands of an adept who leans towards sociopathy can be a very powerful tool that can affect an individual on the subconscious level.

Hypnotism isnt exactly a mystery, or rather its not a mystery to its proponents. The CIA and the KGB understood it well, and even more so, the National Socialists understood the power of hypnotism through motion, music, and visual cues.

You are right that it is incredibly dangerous because it is controlling human behaviour. Did you happen to notice how all the test subjects claimed different colour lights?





originally posted by: game over man
If there is a scientific explanation for Alien Abductions, shouldn't we be able to test it? Shouldn't we be able to subdue to someone into this state of mind and see if they actually hallucinate an Alien Abduction?

Dr. Jacobs thinks all the factual explanations are just pulled out of the air as explanations and don't really deal with the actual phenomenon. I think if sleep paralysis manifests an Alien Abduction, then anyone should be able to do this. Why isn't that the case? Where is the proof that people can hallucinate an Alien Abduction on their own will by staying up for a few days?

I think I already alluded to a study we did at my affiliate university, where the experimenter was able to impose false memories into people who had no prior belief - although a vague awareness of the subject matter was necessary. While it was voluntary (and we had their parents there to confirm their history), we were shut down for unethical practice. Which it's true, we could have done permanent traumatic harm. I was young and didnt understand the risk at that time.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 04:02 AM
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originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: game over man


I think if sleep paralysis manifests an Alien Abduction, then anyone should be able to do this.

I have had many SP episodes but never an alien abduction or even an alien. Mine always started with a very loud buzzing noise like my whole body was electrified. The first time it happened, I thought it was a seizure. That's because I was working in a facility where people had seizures. So the noise and I cant move. I can hear my wife in the next room, I try to move and call for help. I can look around the room and see my room as it is. I can have conversations and even get up and walk around only to find out I am still in bed paralyzed. I don't like the feeling at all and can snap out of it. I did learn to relax and observe.

A few years back I was watching and reading a lot about abductions and had the bright idea that I could induce one during SP. Never happened and I stopped having them ,I think because in a change of medication.


The Construction of Space Alien Abduction Memories

The Ordinary Nature of Alien Abduction Memories

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens






Thank you for posting the links. Very interesting articles. Could you provide the names of the publications, vol, dates, etc for the first two links? The last one shows up on the linked pages. I hope that a number of people on this thread (and all the UFO threads) read these articles so that we can discuss them. Your thoughts about the articles?

It's clear that people can have elaborate false memories.
edit on 13-1-2015 by Tangerine because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 04:58 AM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine


funbox



I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.


Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.


All that UFO means is unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean a craft piloted by extraterrestrials or reptoids from Area 51. Of course there are unidentified flying objects.

Find a crashed "saucer" and the body of an extraterrestrial or reptoid from Area 51 and the scientists will flock to it.

But don't expect a scientist whose career depends on grants to jump at the chance to hang out with and be associated with a bunch of con artists, delusional people, and crackpots of assorted types who drown out the relatively few rational people with a serious interest in the subject. Don't expect a reputable scientist to be willing to ignore the scientific method and declare Jimmy's videotape of his hypnosis session to be testable evidence of extraterrestrials visiting earth and stealing sperm from members of bowling teams. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake her career on Martha's channeled communications from Zorkon that's she's written in code on 4.786 pages. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake his career on a blob of light in a photograph that Ralph and Sheena swear is spacecraft from Orion that buzzed their house. Don't expect a reputable scientist to risk being called a government disinformation agent for not coming to the same conclusion you want him/her to reach.
O

Yes, exactly like I told you, science has failed you. If you are waiting for "science" to investigate the alien situation, you'll wait a long, long time. Oh, wait you already have, seventy years and counting! How's that working out for ya?


Well, I think science has investigated it, they just didn't see fit to share the results with the public.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 05:00 AM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.



What status quo? As far as I can tell, the government wants us to believe that extraterrestrials are visiting earth. Otherwise, the percentage of people who do believe it would be much smaller. After all, governments routinely manage to get the majority of the public to believe all sorts of rubbish including fabrications to justify war.


This is absolutely false, and it is double speak of Orwellian proportion.

Some might even call it a bold faced lie. The facts are that for the last seventy years the government has gone to enormous lengths to prevent the populace from knowing the truth about alien / human contact.

Seventy years of denials and cover-ups. Thousands of witnesses threatened to keep silent. Phony "studies" like Projects Bluebook, Grudge, Sign, and the Condon report, all existing solely to cover up the truth, according to the scientists involved. And you do put all your faith in science, right?

Look, folks, The record is clear and undeniable, all it takes is a look at the documents released under the Freedom of Information Act that reveal undeniable documentation of a policy of absolute denial, year after year, decade after decade, president after president.

It is laughable to suggest that seventy years of denial and cover-up is actually intended to get you to BELIEVE in alien contact. Absurd, with no evidence to support such an outrageous claim. None. They believed the lies told in the propaganda film "Mirage men", which STILL pushes the point that aliens are not real! So how has their story changed? It hasn't.

People don't believe in UFOs and aliens because the government tricked them into doing so.

People believe in UFOs and aliens because millions of people have seen them for themselves.

I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.


I agree. The post you responded to is typcial to the problem, there are so many half-truths and disinformation, all but the most determined researchers will get confounded very quickly. That post did seem like Orwellian double-speak.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 06:43 AM
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originally posted by: game over man
If there is a scientific explanation for Alien Abductions, shouldn't we be able to test it? Shouldn't we be able to subdue to someone into this state of mind and see if they actually hallucinate an Alien Abduction?

Dr. Jacobs thinks all the factual explanations are just pulled out of the air as explanations and don't really deal with the actual phenomenon. I think if sleep paralysis manifests an Alien Abduction, then anyone should be able to do this. Why isn't that the case? Where is the proof that people can hallucinate an Alien Abduction on their own will by staying up for a few days?


That's not how it works.

And there have been scientific studies of such sleep disorders... that's why it has a scientific name - Hallucinatory Hypnagogic Sleep Paralysis



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 08:41 AM
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a reply to: Tangerine


Thank you for posting the links. Very interesting articles. Could you provide the names of the publications, vol, dates, etc for the first two links? The last one shows up on the linked pages. I hope that a number of people on this thread (and all the UFO threads) read these articles so that we can discuss them. Your thoughts about the articles?

It's clear that people can have elaborate

Unfortunately, I know as much about those articles as you do right now. They came from another poster who is no longer with us. Drusilla used to post relentlessly on the topic and paste those links often. I was actually searching for another one about how abduction was recreated in a laboratory and came across this batch. There were 2 more but the links were broken. I bet if you paste those titles in the search, you might find more on them.

As far as my thoughts, I have glanced over them and was half asleep while reading the first one. I have been fascinated by false memories lately and do think they play a major role in UFO lore. Not that it is "the" answer but it certainly should be acknowledged as a contributor in pretty much any case that is recalled. I will have more, hopefully better, thoughts on it latter.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 09:17 AM
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a reply to: Scdfa


I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.

Alien contact may be real but its impossible to cut through all this tired BS. If I had a goal it would be more along the lines of getting people to think for themselves. But I don't have a goal, I'm just here to blow off steam and explore an interesting topic. My personal views on ET have changed over the years and I am here just expressing my viewpoint. Maybe just chill?

Why would the government allow shows like Ancient Aliens, UFO hunters and the other dozen or so pro UFO shows to be aired? Why would they allow all those pro UFO documentaries? Where are all shows with debunkers? Seriously, try searching through the documentaries on Hulu or Netflix. There are more shows on UFOs than any other single topic.
edit on 13-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 09:37 AM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

Yes, exactly like I told you, science has failed you. If you are waiting for "science" to investigate the alien situation, you'll wait a long, long time. Oh, wait you already have, seventy years and counting! How's that working out for ya?


Not surprising. Hundreds of years and they have yet to get to the bottom of the leprechaun situation.



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 12:57 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa
I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.
In relation to myself the above statement is absolutely untrue.
I have never stated that alien contact is not real, not in this thread or anywhere else including real life. I have no idea what the governments 'goal' is as I'm not security cleared to such heights, as I assume you are not either.
I have made no assertions either way regarding claims of aliens, but you have made many. I have asked you what your evidence is, nowhere have I said you are wrong, I have merely questioned your unyielding assertions that aliens are visiting Earth.

I had left you to this thread but since your brought my name up with such scurrilous claims I felt compelled to reply, if only to the other good members of ATS reading this.
I am undecided regarding aliens/UFO's, certainly nothing has drawn me to believe so far in my life. I am happy for anyone to believe whatever they like based on whatever standard of evidence/personal experience may have shaped their perspective.
So please do read my posts/post history if you wish, and you will see that Scdfa's rather personally attacking claims are indeed unfounded.

Kind regards,



posted on Jan, 13 2015 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

outrageous indeed , ill bet the dragons feelings are crushed,

don't feel too bad Draknoir2


maybe nextime ule be up in lights, or at leas at the dregs of a thread


funbox




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