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Police failures during recent hostage crises.

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posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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Referring to the recent hostage crises in Australia as well as the hostage taking today in the Paris grocery store - the police involved in both these cases have either failed miserable at hostage rescue, or have been purposefully ending the sieges without consideration for the hostages.

I am not implying any necessary conspiracy here, yet something seems off to me. The goal of the police SHOULD be that the hostages survive the ordeal.

Paris: You can clearly see in some of the videos how the police raided the grocery store is a completely negligent way:


    approaching only from the front
    opening the glass door
    slowly opening the shutters
    shooting like crazy into the store



source: liveleak

This allowed the terrorist to shoot some of the hostages, since he could see the raid coming from miles away. It is also not impossible that the hostages were killed in the crossfire. (the text with the video claims otherwise, yet the french interior minister was quoted as saying that no one was killed when the hostage-taker stormed the market)

Australia: sadly, I couldn't find any video footage of the raid, but it was clear that it must have been a similar situation.

Both raids seemed to have been very rushed, and could not have turned out worse if they would have just waited the hostage-takers out till they got tired. Especially the one in Paris seemed to be incredibly rushed.

The question is if this is meant as a message to would-be terrorists of "we don't # around", or if the police really are just so damn incompetent.



edit on 9-1-2015 by fedeykin because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-1-2015 by fedeykin because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: fedeykin

I was watching the events unfold and I saw a report saying shots were fired inside so then they stormed the market.
I don't know If true.

Also to be honest # happens in situations like this nothing ever goes as planned.
At this point we just don't know the full story.
edit on 9-1-2015 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 03:45 PM
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a reply to: fedeykin




This allowed the terrorist to shoot some of the hostages

And your source for this is ?
4 hostages were killed at the start of the siege and the total dead after the siege is 5 including the hostage taker.



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: fedeykin

One of the first things done in a situation like this is to come up with a rapid response option. That's a SHTF response. It's not clean, it's not pretty, it's not textbook.

If the reports of gunfire in the store are accurate (and if memory serves, the Sydney situation escalated for the same reason) then the SHTF plan is put into action.



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 03:59 PM
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fedeykin:

It is also not impossible that the hostages were killed in the crossfire.


Having watched the LiveLeak video of the cops entering the store, I have to say that I too asked the question...just exactly how many hostages did the police kill?

I would have thought that the hostage-takers would have used the hostages as shields and cover at the initial incursion into the store, but from the video, as the roller-shutter door rolls up, there is a body already lying on the ground close to the entrance, and pretty quickly it seems people rush the entrance from deeper within the store, but it seems like the police shoot at them. Did the hostage-takers forcibly instruct some of the hostages to run at the door, or did some of the hostages see the entrance open and make a dash for it, only to run into a hail of bullets?

I was expecting an SAS-type incursion, with multiple entry points caused by controlled demolition shape charges at the weakest areas in the walls and ceilings, with flash bangs thrown in first? With four hostages dead that suggests to me the incursion into the store was planned wrongly, and they went too soon...but perhaps they didn't have a choice?
edit on 9/1/15 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)

edit on 9/1/15 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:08 PM
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The raid today was either undertake by GIGN or RAID both of which are highly trained and respected counter-terrorism units, GIGN, who it looks like were probably most involved are regarded as one of the best units of their kind in the world.

As such I do find it a little bemusing that people are sitting behind keyboards talking about their "Failures"

Unless you have all of the facts pertaining to the situation you cannot really sit back and say should not have opened that door so slowly and what appeared to you to be "shooting like crazy" may very well have been a well thought out tactical ploy.

When it comes to hostage situations like this people always want to compare to Operation Nimrod in London but its not always going to go down like that.

It could very well be that the security services had to implement their "direct action plan", this is basically a plan they have in case things turn south very quickly and they just have to move in as opposed to a more deliberate and elaborate plan to secure the building. Or it could just be that was the best plan they had avialble to them due to operational factors we will never know about. It is also worth remembering that we dont know the full details of the operation yet. We have only really seen the front of the supermarket, could have been that they had guys at the back, might even had some guys covertly enter the building before the start of the attack outside. We could go on with endless possibilities.

But like i said, its very easy to second guess them when you are watching events unfold on a TV
edit on 9-1-2015 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:22 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Even Nimrod had casualties to hostages and rescuers both. People often forget that as smooth as that appeared to be, there were still some snafus that popped up.



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:32 PM
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originally posted by: fedeykin
Paris: You can clearly see in some of the videos how the police raided the grocery store is a completely negligent way:


Why haven't you offered your services as a expert in hostage situations to Police worldwide, you apparently are a expert on them.

How many have you taken part in?



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:39 PM
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originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: fedeykin
Paris: You can clearly see in some of the videos how the police raided the grocery store is a completely negligent way:


Why haven't you offered your services as a expert in hostage situations to Police worldwide, you apparently are a expert on them.

How many have you taken part in?


I would just love it if he (or she) turned out to be a real life passenger 67

I doubt it, but would be funny



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:47 PM
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OtherSideOfTheCoin:

I do find it a little bemusing that people are sitting behind keyboards talking about their "Failures".


Some are already well aware how the incursion went, having followed the live feeds most of the day. You don't need to come on here with the usual cliche of keyboard guesses, making yourself out to be all wise and omniscient.

The police did run to the back because there were reports of a second gunman in the store, who did escape out the back. For my own part, I was just relating to what I was seeing watching the video, embellishing nothing and taking nothing away.

Seeing as how you brought up 'Operation Nimrod', we here in Britain are proud of the SAS, particularly with what they accomplished that day 35 years ago when 'counter-terrorism forces' were still unknown in the public consciousness. Six hostage-takers, 26 hostages, and 35 SAS. Within fifteen minutes it was all over. Five hostage-takers dead, one captured, 1 hostage dead, shot by a hostage-taker, all other hostages rescued. All that in a building 3 times the size of the French store and having multiple levels, multiple rooms, to which groups of the hostages had been separated from each other and taken.

Since then, thirty-five years of experience and more intense counter-terrorism training has been applied to modern counter-terrorism forces around the world. Perhaps it could have gone down with less of an aftermath, but like I said, they may not have been given the time to plan and implement the best strategy.


CX

posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:53 PM
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If I was taken hostage, I would be grateful of any of this lot coming to get me. They don't just get handed a stun grenade and a weapon and told to try their best with no training.

I thought they did pretty good today.

CX.


CX

posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 04:58 PM
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The only question I would have about today is how the hell are there still two of them on the run after being surrounded by that many police and special forces?

I don't even know how it is physically possible to get past the massive ring of security that was on those streets today.

CX.



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 05:05 PM
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a reply to: elysiumfire

I am from the UK and very proud of our special forces but they are not super-men.

I think that the French preformed as well as any other unit would have in the same circumstances, even the SAS have lost a few hostages over the years, one was killed during operation Nimrod for example.


edit on 9-1-2015 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 08:25 PM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
fedeykin:

It is also not impossible that the hostages were killed in the crossfire.


I would have thought that the hostage-takers would have used the hostages as shields and cover at the initial incursion into the store, but from the video, as the roller-shutter door rolls up, there is a body already lying on the ground close to the entrance, and pretty quickly it seems people rush the entrance from deeper within the store, but it seems like the police shoot at them. Did the hostage-takers forcibly instruct some of the hostages to run at the door, or did some of the hostages see the entrance open and make a dash for it, only to run into a hail of bullets?

There were no people rushing to the gate.
The first person to run to the door was the hostage taker and they shot him.
All other people followed after that.
I am really not sure how the woman escaped though, because they stormed the backdoor too and all hostages were immediately escorted away.
They should know about the woman, because they had camera access inside the store and knew about her.
I doubt she was in there to begin with, otherwise she could not have escaped.

Btw I think the policeman that got injured during the raid was shot in friendly fire. If you watch the video, they stand on both sides of the gate and fire on the terrorist from both sides.

Another point, I still suspect at least one more terrorist on the run besides the woman.
It does not fit the video from the Charlie hebdo attack, there was a third gunman for sure and the one in the shop told the press that the brothers had the job to attack Charlie and he had the job to attack the police.
So he was not involved in the hebdo attack.
Who is the third attacker? The woman? I doubt it
edit on 9-1-2015 by aLLeKs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2015 @ 10:50 PM
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I just found a video of another angle of the raid.
It is not graphic, but I will not embed it since it might be disturbing for some people.
Here is the link
www.youtube.com...

There is a woman leaving the store at 1:22 in bright clothes, she is running straight to the parking lot instead of being escorted to the RAID vehicle like the other hostages.
She has help by a men, but is left alone shortly after and quickly moves away from the scene a few seconds later (you can see it for a second on the far right of the video, she seems fast)
Is it possible, that this is the female suspect?



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:37 AM
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If you see from this angle, a policeman appears to be looking for someone and then the camera follows these two, check at 2:56 onwards.

I am not an expert but it looks like two females running scared.

Youtube video


edit on 10-1-2015 by civpop because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:46 AM
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a reply to: aLLeKs

I totally agree, I posted this in another thread seems all a bit off to me, I know in the midst of a huge operation things get confused, but first they say Hayat was in the shop (and they'd know wouldn't they because they said they hacked in to the CCTV of the shop so they must have seen who was holding guns) then they said the hostage taker was dead meaning just the 1 hostage taker, then they had an unidentified body along with the hostage who were killed, then that Hayat had escaped and finally that another male hostage taker escaped and Hayat was not in the shop with Choubily.

Witnesses and actual hostages have said what happened and it appears the Choubily killed two people as soon as he entered the shop, a further hostage was killed as he took a gun of Choubily and tried to shoot him but gun jammed so Choubily shot him dead, no word on what happened to the fourth hostage, but I think all 4 hostages were killed before the raid and that's potentially why the Police / RAID decided to storm it as Choubily obviously didn't care and was likely to kill all hostages.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:19 AM
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a reply to: civpop

Btw. this is the woman in question, unfortunately this is the best pic I could get from the front view even though the video was 1080p


I watched your video several times, why are they completely running away from the scene instead to safety?
This has to be the suspect, otherwise it makes not sense...
But who is with her? Maybe the wife of another terrorist?
edit on 10-1-2015 by aLLeKs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:26 AM
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a reply to: aLLeKs

I know but check out this video on youtube warning it has the gunman getting killed its a completely different angle, not sure if I am allowed to post due to the nature of video so go to youtube and search

Silvan500 his video L'assault Porte De Vicennes

Fairly graphic and you can see the door looks like the video was taken from across the road directly.

Couldn't click on liveleak video from OP apologies for r posting the video the poster already did :-(


edit on 10-1-2015 by civpop because: Apology to original poster didnt see video before



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: fedeykin
I thought about this myself, it seems that there are calculations being made to deduce, whether small collateral loss of hostages is acceptable in order to render the hostage takers neutralized and free the majority, than to gamble on total breakdown of negotiations and the deaths of all of the hostages.

It was clear to me when the press said there was negotiations that this situation was in reality non-negotiable, and we know that the hostage takers were probably not so stupid as to realize this fact and they were finished, so there, a certain amount of calculations and theoretical situations had to be parsed by the police, they took the one where they thought there would be the best outcome for the majority of the hostages.




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