How can being faithless be more important then any other Evil act.

a reply to: ElohimJD

What mankind has done thanks to religion far exceeds what he's done without it. Without religion, people are actually held accountable for their actions...Religion was devised to keep those in power at the head of the house, free of judgement from their subordinates. Religion is nothing more then a hindrance and an excuse (Poor one at that) to justify someone's questionable bx and keep the populace in check.

Edit: Bx=Behavior...sorry

a reply to: windword

The laws mentioned in that post are spiritual laws dealing with free moral agent interactions with other free moral agents. God did also Created the Laws of physics.

In the garden is was the free choice to determine for themselves what is good and evil that they eat of.

There were 2 trees which represent 2 ways of thinking. The tree of Life represents agreement with God's spiritual Laws and His role as Lawgiver. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents rejecting God as Lawgiver and choosing for themselves what is "good" and what is "evil". They were kicked out of God presence because they chose to be unfaithful to their Creator as Lawgiver, and placed that faith in themselves (human reasoning).

So you believe in a God that created everything, even you, but HE created you immoral, self deceived and selfish?

Yes, that is what God says he did for a great purpose in His Word so I believe it by faith. I deny my human nature as best I can while repenting of it when I fail. God Created us to be changed by the power of His Holy Spirit, and in that power true repentance can take place.

This seems to contradict everything that Christianity stands for. I thought Jesus' death was the dawn of the age of Salvation.

"Traditional Christianity" today is not in agreement with God. There are several doctrines use by "Christianity" that are terrible sin before God. What is true from God and what is taught in christian schools are not the same thing.

However Jesus Christ's death was the dawn for salvation for those "called out ones" of the present age to live according to God's laws currently. Without Jesus' death God's Holy Spirit could not be given to mankind because sin could not be repented of (God will not dwell in sin, therefore He could not dwell in the minds of mankind until after repentance was made possible).

Salvation for one called out of the age beings at the individual's calling. The "Age for salvation" for those not called out of the present age occurs in the future by perfect design.

God Bless,

originally posted by: ElohimJD

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: ElohimJD

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: Entreri06

Religious programming is more important than free will.

Within free will there lays the choice to agree with God.

God Bless,

or the choice to disagree and be cordially invited into his custom decorated gas chamber.

It is sick what mankind is capable of in an age ruled by individual definitions of good and evil.

Some man somewhere thought this choice was "good"... sick.

God Bless,

what is sick is that we willingly, regularly pay them to tune us up and play us like violins. its not the pharmacies that are the problem, its not the factories or the moneymen, its the addicts. people willing to reward those who choose to exploit spiritual for economic and social gain. some men somewhere always think its a good choice. nazis still exist. white supremacists still exist. patriarchs still exist. homophobes still exist. people who are willing to kill if they think it will make the world a better place. they dont have to be right, they just have to think they are. and have a little faith.

a reply to: ElohimJD

Faith doesn't accomplish anything. You can believe all day, but at the end of the day it's not going to help you live your life any better. You will go through the same trials, tribulations, and hardships as anyone else on this planet. If I can succeed in overcoming those hardships without faith, then it proves that faith isn't necessary to live your life.

So it may comfort you to believe in your fairy godfather and help you sleep at night, it is really just a distraction. In order to give my faith towards something, my faith must be rewarded. In this case, if god wants me to believe in him, he needs to reward me with indisputable evidence that he exists. This evidence would have to work for EVERYONE equally. It can't be something that you see because you want to see it, but no one else sees it (like all the current arguments for god). EVERYONE has to get the picture equally. Only THEN would I put my faith in your god.

God makes all these demands of us, gets angry at the drop of a hat for our deeds, becomes jealous if we stray away, then REFUSES to provide the bare minimum it takes to shut up the naysayers. Sounds fishy to me.

originally posted by: Jenisiz
a reply to: ElohimJD

What mankind has done thanks to religion far exceeds what he's done without it. Without religion, people are actually held accountable for their actions...Religion was devised to keep those in power at the head of the house, free of judgement from their subordinates. Religion is nothing more then a hindrance and an excuse (Poor one at that) to justify someone's questionable bx and keep the populace in check.

Edit: Bx=Behavior...sorry

I agree.

What mankind has done with their carnal human reasoning using "religion" as the excuse in the present age is one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else.

Selfish mankind has used the excuse of religious authority to execute some of the greatest tragedies possible.

But these people are not "called out ones" by God in the present age. They are using religion as a tool for power.

God Bless,

a reply to: ElohimJD

But these people are not "called out ones" by God in the present age. They are using religion as a tool for power.

how about the pope? dont get me wrong, i like the guy. he is pretty dope for the king of catholics. but when was the last time he did something only a representative of the true god could do? and if the pope cant do miracles, who can?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: ElohimJD

Faith doesn't accomplish anything. You can believe all day, but at the end of the day it's not going to help you live your life any better. You will go through the same trials, tribulations, and hardships as anyone else on this planet. If I can succeed in overcoming those hardships without faith, then it proves that faith isn't necessary to live your life.

So it may comfort you to believe in your fairy godfather and help you sleep at night, it is really just a distraction. In order to give my faith towards something, my faith must be rewarded. In this case, if god wants me to believe in him, he needs to reward me with indisputable evidence that he exists. This evidence would have to work for EVERYONE equally. It can't be something that you see because you want to see it, but no one else sees it (like all the current arguments for god). EVERYONE has to get the picture equally. Only THEN would I put my faith in your god.

God makes all these demands of us, gets angry at the drop of a hat for our deeds, becomes jealous if we stray away, then REFUSES to provide the bare minimum it takes to shut up the naysayers. Sounds fishy to me.

Living faith certainly can!

It is faith in God that allows for His Holy Spirit to dwell in the mind of a "called out one" It is His Holy Spirit which helps me choose to live a better life.

Faith is not necessary to live life, we are born, we live, we die.

It is necessary for God's Spirit to produce righteous works that make all lives betters.

"my faith must be rewarded".
So you have to "get" something in order to "give". That is the definition of carnal human reasoning.

"if god wants me to believe in him, he needs to reward me with indisputable evidence that he exists."

Just wait. You will receive all the physical evidence you need to KNOW God exists on the short time this age has left.

God Bless,

a reply to: ElohimJD

No faith isn't necessary to produce righteous works. There are plenty of artists producing moving and uplifting art without faith. There are plenty of altruistic people doing great things for their fellow man without faith. Faith being necessary for anything is one big fallacy.

Just wait. You will receive all the physical evidence you need to KNOW God exists on the short time this age has left.

Yea, I've heard this before. Excuse me for not holding my breath that it will come true. Your camp has been saying this for 2000 years now. Doesn't it get old?

a reply to: ElohimJD

The laws mentioned in that post are spiritual laws dealing with free moral agent interactions with other free moral agents.

Just HOW did God hand THOSE laws down to us? The Bible?

So you believe in a God that created everything, even you, but HE created you immoral, self deceived and selfish?


Yes, that is what God says he did for a great purpose in His Word so I believe it by faith. I

Just how and where does God "say" he made us immoral, self deceitful and selfish for the greater purpose of his Word?

However Jesus Christ's death was the dawn for salvation for those "called out ones" of the present age to live according to God's laws currently. Without Jesus' death God's Holy Spirit could not be given to mankind because sin could not be repented of (God will not dwell in sin, therefore He could not dwell in the minds of mankind until after repentance was made possible).

And, ^^ this is what humanity needs to believe, to have faith in, more than any other thing? Why doesn't the immoral murder of an innocent man, as a gift of salvation. make any sense, morally, to the self aware and self examining atheist?

a reply to: ElohimJD

william lane craig - is that you ???

that has to be the most convoluted answer ever

yes or no will suffice

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

If man was created in God's image, why is it in our nature to disagree with God?

That only means we have 3 separate and distinct things comprising 1 person. Body, soul, and spirit.

Now these three remain hope faith and love but the greatest is love. If you don't have love then you have nothing (1 Corinthians 13)

loveless is worse because loveless is godless.

originally posted by: Jenisiz
a reply to: ElohimJD

What mankind has done thanks to religion far exceeds what he's done without it. Without religion, people are actually held accountable for their actions...Religion was devised to keep those in power at the head of the house, free of judgement from their subordinates. Religion is nothing more then a hindrance and an excuse (Poor one at that) to justify someone's questionable bx and keep the populace in check.

Edit: Bx=Behavior...sorry

Tho I agree with your point. There's no way to know that. People have done a lot of goodin the name of religion as well. Thee just hasn't been anyone really keeping track.

originally posted by: arpgme
Now these three remain hope faith and love but the greatest is love. If you don't have love then you have nothing (1 Corinthians 13)

loveless is worse because loveless is godless.

So Athiests can't love? Or you still believe in Christianity but god doesn't care who if you believe in him or Jesus as long as you love someone?

There has been more then one monster who truely loved there children.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I think the bit about baptism was put in there so people would take a bath. In an area where water was scarce, I bet people smelled a bit back then. The smell of these people could have chased away demons.

originally posted by: ElohimJD
a reply to: Entreri06

Faith is belief in God as Creator and Lawgiver.

Without Faith you cannot determine what good (agreement with God) and evil (disagreement with God) is.

You are speaking of 'faith' in a 'specific' dogma. And FAITH is all that is necessary - but it can be FAITH in whatever a person believes in whether it be the teachings of a specific religion, or a science or sciences, a philosophy, money or in self (and I believe the last two have more adherents then the others).

I don't think humans can live, or even get out of bed in the morning, without FAITH in something (that the sun will come up, the earth will be solid under foot, etc).

In fact, when it comes to ethics and morals, I tend to believe that an obstainante faith in a specific dogma or a specific teacher, can cause more harm then good.

As an atheist I do the 'right' thing for the situation I'm in right now, right here. I know that when I act truthfully, kindly and openly to ALL my results are good and when they are not - I have something new to learn. I do the right/correct/skillful thing because it's the right/correct/skillful thing to do for me and everyone else not because of fear of retribution from a sect or a specific god.

I practice behaving, speaking and thinking how and what I do because my experience tells me (every moment) that my life works better, my relationships are heathier and my thinking is clearer when I live in accord with certain Universal principals. And I'm much happier to boot.

Check out Lawrence Kohlber's stages of moral development:

en.wikipedia.org...

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

1. Obedience and punishment orientation (How can I avoid punishment?)

2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?) (Paying for a benefit)

Level 2 (Conventional)

3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (Social norms) (The good boy/girl attitude)

4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality)

Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

5. Social contract orientation

6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)

NOTE: personally I find Carol Gilligan's moral scale much truer because it includes the feminime experience but am unable to find quickly a good summary for posting and it is based, and she worked with, on Kolberg's work:

A slide show can be found here for any that are interested:

www.slideshare.net...

Briefly, from above:

Her research reflected that women's development was set within the context of caring and relationships, rather than in compliance with an abstract set of rights or rules.

I want to point out the utter incongruity of the following two 'tenants' of christianity:

1) We are made in god's image.

2) We are born evil (original sin).

Therefore (logically) it follows that god = evil.

The OP questions references ONE faith religion.

It would be hubris for anyone to argue for or against in any definitive way and not rely on FAITH to bolster a reply. The contents rely on more than a little faith/the non-logic relies on more than a little faith/the authorship relies on more than a little faith/the personal experiences interpreted through that ONE book rely on more than a little faith...

Anyone can argue faith till the cows come home...it requires no proof...and using ONE book to legitimise that faith in a circular manner is zero sum game for both...

It is the hieght of hubris to claim to know definitively what a loving Source could achieve by creating man/woman to have it involute back to itself in one lifetime - and (supposedly) have created an arch enemy (that to all intents and purposes cannot be wiped to 'kingdome come') that THE main character and his/her son cannot banish/eradicate/quell/disanimate (over the course of countless generations)...that is an operational problem beyond Almightiness, and squarely accuses those who have faith in this scenario to explain ultimately to themselves...those times will come, over and over again, when it is just them they are dealing with in 'places' constructed by thier acts of creation (which will seem real) but we all wake up from the self-imposed dream eventually - once we realise what free will can do...

Å99

originally posted by: FyreByrd
I want to point out the utter incongruity of the following two 'tenants' of christianity:

1) We are made in god's image.

2) We are born evil (original sin).

Therefore (logically) it follows that god = evil.

Very well played!!

Except it was an apple that made us turn from good to evil.. Keeps the dr. Away my A$$!

originally posted by: FyreByrd
I want to point out the utter incongruity of the following two 'tenants' of christianity:

1) We are made in god's image.

2) We are born evil (original sin).

Therefore (logically) it follows that god = evil.

#2 is Roman Catholic dogma. The understanding I have is that a person is responsible for their choices when they reach the age of accountability. The person must be capable of understanding they have sinned and need redemption. Children and the mentally ill aren't sinners. It's takes an act of commission or omission.