The Loss of Femininity in The USA

originally posted by: FyreByrd
You think the objective is to 'complete' yourself or 'balance' yourself with another. The attempt is pure folly, strenghts and weaknesses aside. True partnership can only be attained by those who are complete and content in themselves, warts farts and all - what you 'seem' to mean is really 'mutual dependant' or in modern parlance 'co-dependant'.

To postulate or even imply what I think, or how I think is a bit pretentious no?

When you find a perfectly balanced person please allow them to speak on ATS, and maybe even write a book for us defective folks.

One should be complete before entering into a relationship, but many times this is not the case.

Relationships are dependent period. Idealistically and in Hollywood movies people are all balanced, and have attained the perfect match, but in reality dependency, and co-dependency are the norm.

Sometimes people get down and out. Again male or female are not exempt from the maladies of life, mentally, physically and emotionally, so when one person is down the other person fills in.

The problems appear when one party feels that other is not towing their weight, so communication is paramount.

a reply to: Realtruth

Thank you for this thread. It's a great, great example of the internet living up to its highest promise.

I feel very inspired just reading it. Very very grateful for ATS, and those that make this site so special.

a reply to: Realtruth

yes, behind ever great man and all that.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Realtruth

yes, behind ever great man and all that.

And vice versa Storm. lol

Strength comes from understanding and working together. How that is achieved is a whole other story.

originally posted by: Realtruth
To postulate or even imply what I think, or how I think is a bit pretentious no?

You started off with an implication as to what I think, turnabout is fair play, my friend.

Alright folks it's been fun, but I have daddy duties to attend to.

Enjoy the debate.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: rickymouse

I remember those days ricky, but now at 65 and 64 my hubby and I are still working, me only part time though.

I don't know what people are going to do.

Am I off topic?

I just don't know what happened to the system so many people worked so hard to create. It all fell apart. I am fifty nine, and I never got to experience this except to see the older people and how things were in the early sixties. Most of my aunts didn't work, they took care of the family and cooking. The guys used to get together and help each other with construction projects after work and on weekends, the women would cook up a storm. I still see a little of this today but most times the woman is also working, that was not necessary back then.

Wouldn't it be nice if your husband would have been the only one who needed to work at a job. It was that way for a long long time. Sure women had to work too, many times they worked harder than their husbands but at home. There were no day care costs and because the woman had time to cook great meals, there was little need to go out and eat.

But some guys abused this and thought their job was more important, how wrong they were. These type of men are still crabby and blow their money on unnecessary toys. The women back then were more sensible most times, now they blow their money because they had to work for it too and more people are straddled with debt.

a reply to: Realtruth

If you need numbers in your military, what better way to do so. You start early and by the time the ball drops, you have cannon fodder for political gain or for the mad men on an ego trip. I'm waiting for steroids to be implemented to offset the sissy boys. As for the family unit being dismantled, it's about detachment. Nothing to hold you back from being a good soldier.


Hey, it's only a theory. I hope.

a reply to: Realtruth

My experience has been a bit opposite.

My husband, when I first met him was coddled as a child, his mother expected nothing of him and his father taught him nothing. He knew none of what I call the "manly arts". He couldn't even hold a screw driver. I, on the other hand, can do anything from sewing to plumbing.

In the 7 years we have been together, we both have really, really changed. He has become a man. I am now the woman. I no longer do any of the "manly arts". Yes, I supervise and make sure the job is right, but I make (yes, make) him do it. I do ALL of the typical woman duties. When we had our first child 7 months ago, he always figured I would work because that's what "a real woman", in his mind, was supposed to do. I convinced him that woman are supposed to stay home and raise the kids. We don't need the extra money, so it was a no brainier for me. He has come around now, and would never want me to go back to work while we have young kids. He understands that the whole house is happier and stress free.

Anyway, I guess my point is that my husband's idea of a woman was one that works, makes plenty of money, shoddily cleans a house, and can cook a grilled cheese. This is what his mother did, so that makes sense. Now we enjoy traditional roles, he gets good cooking, a spotless house, a well cared for child, and I even iron all his dang clothes....all the while teaching him wood working and diaper changing.

I don't think femininity has been lost. It's only hiding. I think if men manned up, like I craftily trained and taught my husband, women could have the actual chance to be more "traditional", so to speak. But then again, I don't know if men can man up with daycare workers raising them and no discipline.

So can we all agree that women entering the workforce in mass quantities (and later being expected to work) has torn a traditional family apart? Thus changing the interpretation of masculinity and femininity.

a reply to: fictitious

Your reply reminded me of the Wife of Bath in the Cantebury Tales. I don't mean this as a criticism.

like I craftily trained and taught my husband

I supervise and make sure the job is right, but I make (yes, make) him do it

when I first met him was coddled ... his father taught him nothing ... He couldn't even hold a screw driver.

I, on the other hand, can do anything

Here are the cliff notes for those that would like a refresher of her tale
Cliff Notes: Wife of Bath

I posted a reply in page 5 of this thread for anybody that would like to read it: post by compressedFusion. Essentially it says that caring for each other goes a long way. Otherwise every situation is unique. I'm glad you and your husband have found harmony.

I wish you the best.

ETA: My wife and I have traditional roles as well. I also agree with your points about discipline and role models. It is very important.

a reply to: compressedFusion

Interesting. I never read the Canterbury Tales. After reading the notes on that, I'd have to agree a bit. However, in my case, instead of me wanting to gain the upperhand over my husband, in my mind I had it from the beginning because, like the lady in the tale, I value experience over perceived authority.

I actually wanted to teach him to gain the upperhand. I have more respect for someone with experience. I wanted him to know more and have an interest and ability in the "manly arts". Now that he can do anything I could do before (although, like I said, I do have to supervise for quality control haha), I have wayyyyy more respect for him. Having that respect for him now makes our relationship so smooth. It puts us both in great places.

originally posted by: Realtruth

originally posted by: FyreByrd
You think the objective is to 'complete' yourself or 'balance' yourself with another. The attempt is pure folly, strenghts and weaknesses aside. True partnership can only be attained by those who are complete and content in themselves, warts farts and all - what you 'seem' to mean is really 'mutual dependant' or in modern parlance 'co-dependant'.

To postulate or even imply what I think, or how I think is a bit pretentious no?

When you find a perfectly balanced person please allow them to speak on ATS, and maybe even write a book for us defective folks.

One should be complete before entering into a relationship, but many times this is not the case.

Relationships are dependent period. Idealistically and in Hollywood movies people are all balanced, and have attained the perfect match, but in reality dependency, and co-dependency are the norm.

Sometimes people get down and out. Again male or female are not exempt from the maladies of life, mentally, physically and emotionally, so when one person is down the other person fills in.

The problems appear when one party feels that other is not towing their weight, so communication is paramount.

Pretentious - perhaps. All we have to go on are your actual words. I was neither postulating nor implying, I was deducing from your phasing and tone.

I never said anything about a perfectly balanced person - you interjected that.

And no - relationships are not always dependent. They may be the 'norm' as you say but we we see the outcomes of such.

I will be pretentious again to state that you are exhibiting the masculine type of 'strong' thinking here where the clue is the ad hominem attach and the hyperbole.

a reply to: fictitious

It has been said that what a woman desire's most is to train or change a man. This was arguably a motif that was in the Tales and throughout much of our literature and history. A modern and humorous example can be seen in the Simpsons.

Marge: Well most women will tell you that you're a fool to think you can change a man, but those women are quitters.
Lisa: What?
Marge: When I first met your father, he was loud, crude, and piggish. But I worked hard on him, and now he's a whole new person.
Lisa: Mom...?
Marge: He's a whole new person, Lisa.

At face value it appears to be an ironic play on this age old motif, but Homer and Marge do find harmony in the series in large part due to her efforts. Of course, it is interlaced with all of the modern problems and stress that Chaucer wasn't exposed to.

Your post made me smile because it hit on something that appears to be innate in us. And more importantly your intentions were pure.

I also smile because my wife and I have found harmony amidst the stress of raising a family but our dynamic was completely different. I find the variety beautiful.

Thank you for sharing your story.

It is probably the cause of the sexodus or what they call MGTOW(Men going their own way) movement. Men not wanting to marry. They are tired of being told they are the victimizers or potential rapist. Men are wrong and are needed to be civilized and are emasculated. Women are from Venus and men are from hell.

Even the word feminism denotes anti male and todays society is gynocentric which is seen in the media. No wonder men feel like they are disposable and have no self worth.

This is the face of the new feminism. Chanty Binx ... warning foul language in video

originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

I'm gonna say back in the day men and women were equally as fierce, they had to be,warriors

1 agrees Stormdancer777, and in no way was their denying this.

NAMASTE*******

When do you think we started emphasizing masculine and feminine energy?
And why?

Other then the usual argument men forced a patriarchal society on us.

NAMASTE

That Stormdancer777 could of happened many times.
But to 1 subjectively the more masculine may have had opportunities to develop during those "bottle neck population thinned periods" when the population was under extreme pressure and was tested of species integrity when trying to survive what ever events where going on that caused the bottle neck process to occur...

During these periods the feminine energy may have also progressed in response to the bottle neck processes that were occurring, as a team work effort would of been required to overcome the trials and tribulations the species was going through in order to survive overall.

Good question Stormdancer777

The feminine qualities described in the op, are such an idealised unrealistic view of what a woman should be it's almost disturbing.
Women who dont meet up to this odd standard are not feminine and we've lost something?
i think a lot of those characteristics, may have been survival instinct for a weaker repressed women to gain favour in a masculine society. Thank goodnes women are no longer forced into and made to feel inadequate for not living up to such idealised "feminine valuees"

I'm taking care of 2 kids (6yo & 1yo -no child support and only minimal involvement out of the father of the baby) and 2 quickly-becoming-elderly parents. I have goats to feed, herd and milk. A horse to feed and herd. Chickens to feed and eggs to gather. I have to buy and unload all the feed sacks and hay. My mom and I have gardens to tend and fences to mend. Today I get to shovel horse poop and cut my own firewood. If an animal gets sick or injured it's up to me to put it down. If a wild animal becomes a nuisance, it's up to me to kill it. I'm learning to weld so I can fix things around the farm. I've got a 35 year old log cabin that's falling apart faster than I can fix it. And yes, even after all that there is cleaning, cooking, dishes and laundry to do.

I would LOVE the luxury of being feminine, but that is dependent on a masculine man to pick up the slack. Where the hell are they? I recently read the description 'flailing man-child'.....could not be more accurate in terms of guys nowadays, not ALL of them, but a LOT. I haven't been in a serious relationship in 8 years, and that marriage ended because he decided he didn't want the responsibility of caring for anyone but himself. The marriage before that ended because that guy started doing hard drugs and became physically abusive....so yeah the woman/victim instigated that divorce- for all the jerk-wads on here saying that 75% of divorce is instigated by women. Out of every relationship I've ever been in I've pretty much never gotten Christmas, Valentine or birthday gifts, much less spontaneous gifts. Every major disagreement has always revolved around the guy NOT pulling his weight around the house. And none of them have ever supported me or paid one bill of mine, so you can't say it was my 'duty' to handle the house work.

Come up with some real, masculine men who are willing to be the protectors and providers and you will start to see the 'feminine' women you desire.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

PS There is an opening on my farm for a real man. Must be physically fit, good with animals, old people, and children. Welding and firearm skills are a plus. Intelligence would be nice, but I'm willing to sacrifice that for good looks. Must be willing to get me SOMETHING, even if it's just a card, on major holidays and anniversaries. Must be good in bed and good at washing dishes. Must have pride, honor, impressive work ethic, loyalty and devotion to family. Must be drug and disease free.

If you can handle all this, I promise to be more feminine.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

PS There is an opening on my farm for a real man. Must be physically fit, good with animals, old people, and children. Welding and firearm skills are a plus. Intelligence would be nice, but I'm willing to sacrifice that for good looks. Must be willing to get me SOMETHING, even if it's just a card, on major holidays and anniversaries. Must be good in bed and good at washing dishes. Must have pride, honor, impressive work ethic, loyalty and devotion to family. Must be drug and disease free.

If you can handle all this, I promise to be more feminine.

That sounds fair....send me your headshot and resume.

a reply to: olaru12


36 yo, Aquarius, Education: BA in General Studies, Fields of study: Drawing & Painting, Pre Med Biology and Business Management with an informal minor in German, Source of income: Pension/early retirement

My birthday is in a couple of weeks. I really wanted Yves Saint Laurent lipstick (feminine thing right?). But instead I HAD to buy a new chainsaw. (pictured above. useful, but not very feminine)

See OP, if I had a man to handle the chainsaw/firewood end of things so that me and my babies don't freeze to death....then I could focus on more feminine things like expensive make-up.