The Loss of Femininity in The USA

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: soficrow
Well there you go. I suppose the OXFORD dictionary cant wrong. Seems by definition that is all there is to it.

Definition of femininity in English:
noun
The quality of being female; womanliness: she celebrates her femininity by wearing makeup and high heels.

As you said, "it's a brave new world out there" meanings for words are constantly changing, evolving, and especially with the globalization of communications, the english language is evolving quickly. Conceptualizations from other cultures and ways of thought are influencing current interpretations (as in the awareness of eastern philosophies).
Some of the "traditional" dictionaries like Oxford are often "behind" a bit in terms of these evolutions in semantics.

Review the qualities of a masculine oriented society, in which gender roles are clearly defined and separated, instead of androgeny, and traditional meaning of the word indicates we (in the US and GB) have had a masculine oriented society.

a reply to: Bluesma
You seem to be to overtly concerned on this thing. In the end it seems to be a copy and paste job to me. I mean, with how broad a stroke can we define all females or all males? Though I think that definition oxford offers seems to be the gist of it on what femininity is about. Anything else may be attributed to the individual in question. If that is left out, then all you are left with is a broad stroke of the paintbrush. And if that were the case, then I think that's what the magazines are there for, to remind you all what its all about. You know! Least you forget.

Eastern philosophy has a long history, carried by adults. In latin languages, even non-animate objects are referred to as masculine or feminine- having nothing at all to do with gender.

Listen. You keep saying that, and you changed your mind so many times from the original things you said that its obvious that your just trying to get at something, but its likely that even you yourself have confused yourself to the point of it being a mute point.

Yin and Yang may not be such a defining way of describing this whole thing as you make out. In fact if I were going by that very fact, then I would say that the majority of females I run into in daily life's are probably dudes in wigs. I dont know maybe at one time it applied, but today, nah I dont see how yin and yang applies, much less in the future were the whole gender lines become even more blurred then they are. Besides I do not think it matters as most people do not bother thinking on this question at all.

Oh! And I am quite familiar with Latin or other languages and there whole outlook on gender. In fact much more then you are. In fact you could say that I have forgotten more about that then you will learn. I know that in a lot of other languages out there they attribute a male and female part to everything, I came to this country ie the USA when I was 10 yr old. So ya! By 12 I learned that English for all its lingo is a kind of a base language, in Romanian my other language you can attribute feminine qualities even to inanimate objects in fact its done so often that nobody would know the difference even if they spoke both languages unless they thought about it, or even depending on who is holding that object male or female the way you pronounce it differs, pretty much everything has a feminine counterpart to it. They basically have a whole outset and wording to saying something is feminine. In English you dont have that, its more stamped out, like everything else here, its like the language was created on a production line in a factory.

So ya! You seem to know a bit about french, so I am sure they have some of the same wordings and mindsets, which do change the overall thinking process as well. But like I said, I probably forgot more things on that subject then you have just come to realize in your short time living in that country. And just so you know, there are some difference between American and french mind frames especially when it concerned the sexes. But they also have a lot more in common with each other.

I disagree. When someone finds they feel unhappy, they can sometimes find that their cultural upbringing has conditioned them to feel they must be a certain way, but that way of being is oppressing parts of their self that they need or want to live and experience. It is not because they became aware of this that it wasn't true before that moment of awareness.

OK! But that is not what I was talking about.

a reply to: Bluesma

Review the qualities of a masculine oriented society, in which gender roles are clearly defined and separated, instead of androgeny, and traditional meaning of the word indicates we (in the US and GB) have had a masculine oriented society.

Ah! No. You have dudes in wigs who were the forefathers of this country. And would it surprise you that a lot of them swung both ways. Like I said this is not about male or matriarchy, its about production lines and factories. We have not lived under a masculine oriented society. If that were so you would see dudes in skimpy underwear on the tube all the time trying to sell you products. Generally masculine oriented societies tend to be more on the open or gay side, ie look at Sparta or ancient Greece or even ancient Rome.

What you have is what females want to see, if you have not noticed everything in our society is catered to female interests, and the male is merely a go to reach those interests, so much so that most of them are not capable of thinking outside that paradigm. And off course that fails oh so spectacular as well. Its why you all cant even accomplish the simplest things without first creating a whole social construct and context for it. That's all it is...A selling point.

As you said, "it's a brave new world out there" meanings for words are constantly changing, evolving, and especially with the globalization of communications, the english language is evolving quickly.

More like devolving. I think the bushmen with there clicks and whistles have more of a meaningful conversation. The only way English could evolve anymore is if we were all to start speaking in binary 0 and 1s now. Or how about emoticons, lol that is so

Some of the "traditional" dictionaries like Oxford are often "behind" a bit in terms of these evolutions in semantics.

So what your saying is that you dont like the oxford definition of what femininity is because it falls to close to reality, and really there is little more to it. I mean if like the dictionary says 'she wears high heals and makeup to feel more feminine" does not cut it then what does? You may want to take it up with them then, you know send them a letter ie the dictionary people, explaining how you think the whole thing should be changed.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird

Yin and Yang may not be such a defining way of describing this whole thing as you make out. In fact if I were going by that very fact, then I would say that the majority of females I run into in daily life's are probably dudes in wigs. I dont know maybe at one time it applied, but today, nah I dont see how yin and yang applies, much less in the future were the whole gender lines become even more blurred then they are. Besides I do not think it matters as most people do not bother thinking on this question at all.

Masculine and feminine energy applies to intimate relationships between two people.

Without polarity, relationships typically suck. When women are forced to be the masculine energy in a relationship, the relationships REALLY suck.

Are any women reading this turned on by feminine men? Maybe masculine women.

How about men who try to appease them?

Are any men reading this turned on my masculine women? Maybe feminine men.

By and large, women are not attracted to men who act like wusses. And men are not attracted to women who try to be alpha males.

Just look at how the world around you works.

Women want men, not immature wussy boys.

a reply to: Jamie1

Masculine and feminine energy applies to intimate relationships between two people. Without polarity, relationships typically suck. When women are forced to be the masculine energy in a relationship, the relationships REALLY suck.

Ya well its a hit or miss. I dont even know what your talking about really. I mean what the hell does women being forced to be the masculine energy even mean? What do you have to change your own tire or what? Is somebody forcing you to wear pants? No offense, but what your talking about could just be your own peculiar idiosyncrasies, which if you dont list what manliness means to you may just be as effective and fun as spiting against the wind.

Besides which I do not think women are lacking in options, if you or whoever else is not hitting it on with one guy. Well there are others. And the same goes for males as well. I mean really, I do not see how this is even a thing or that much of a problem.

Are any women reading this turned on by feminine men? Maybe masculine women.

Depends on the society but I would think yes there are. I mean look at Japanese society, even in videogames and art you can tell a difference. Its why in Japanese videogames or Korean everybody looks like they stepped out of a fashion booth, and in western games oh lets say something like skyrim. Most of the dudes looked like they sleep outside under a rock for weeks. It just may be style of preference. Who know really. The last thing i want to do is think about all the stupid # people have a thing for.

In all. I think its all just a fetish like everything else. If you like manly men beards chest hair and all that, well there are no shortage of one or the either. I see no issues in any of this but the pictures people have in there head which do not match reality.

How about men who try to appease them?

Appease who?

Are any men reading this turned on my masculine women? Maybe feminine men.

Well not me. But there are likely dudes who are more into the tomboyish or such women. No offense but the whole stilettos or iffy dress up is not for everybody, for all you know some dudes may like a woman who can change her own dam tire. But then I cant speak for all of mankind either. In fact most day I can not even speak for myself. So really. Who cares? But it all just depends on what you mean by masculine women? Its probably a long list of things. If so then I am not reading it.

By and large, women are not attracted to men who act like wusses. And men are not attracted to women who try to be alpha males. Just look at how the world around you works. Women want men, not immature wussy boys.

Well obviously you have some sort of bizarre fetish thing. I am not sure what you mean by wussy boys. Under a majority of categorizations that can mean a bunch of things, from nerd to broke to who know what. Like I said to a few of you crazy ladies, make a list and present it to whoever your man is, so that way you know. He knows what your about and what your talking about. If not, I mean how else is he suspended to know? By reading your mind?

Anyways. If that's you in that avatar. I do not see what the issue is, chances are that you will not have that hard of a time in finding your manly man, plenty of them out there. Its bound to happen sooner or later, though it would happen faster if you all started being more straight forward with things....OH! And that is one fugly cat you got there. No offense, but the poor critter looks like he was beaten with the ugly kitty stick.

Oh and again. The whole yin and yang is an outdated mode of conduct it ritualistic at best and taken as pure context. I do not think it applies as much as you people think it does. Or at least not in any higher complicated individual other then a two celled organism does it bring any closure. Like I said, its a hit or miss for the most part. I really do not see any issues here.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: Bluesma
You seem to be to overtly concerned on this thing.

It is a subject that is pertinant to me, as I have explained in the past, because leaving my own native country, I was faced with culture clashes which made my own conditioning painfully obvious to me .

I mean, with how broad a stroke can we define all females or all males?

Cultural conditioning is a broad stroke, because it influence deeply all the people in that culture. There are ideas, values, morals, that get imprinted onto the mind very early in life, and not always in obvious ways that can be recognized and consciously chosen. This pertains to men and women alike.

Yin and Yang may not be such a defining way of describing this whole thing as you make out. In fact if I were going by that very fact, then I would say that the majority of females I run into in daily life's are probably dudes in wigs.

You are supporting what I am saying. That men and women in the USA are conditioned to value highly masculine, or "yang" type of characteristics, and to reject or de-value feminine or "yin" characteristics.

To help illustrate what that means, in a culture which values higher "Yin" type of characteristics (and rejecting the Yang ones), you would probably feel the men were overly effeminate.

Besides I do not think it matters as most people do not bother thinking on this question at all.

EXACTLY why I so often bring it up- to provoke some thought. As long as you don't think about it, you can be subtly programmed to be a certain way, believe certain things, without ever having deliberated upon them and decided to integrate them.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
Oh and again. The whole yin and yang is an outdated mode of conduct it ritualistic at best and taken as pure context. I do not think it applies as much as you people think it does. Or at least not in any higher complicated individual other then a two celled organism does it bring any closure. Like I said, its a hit or miss for the most part. I really do not see any issues here.

Just look around. Relationships with polarity between the people in them are hot.

Lack of polarity is borderline platonic.

There's a reason the divorce rate is 50%.

originally posted by: Jamie1


Masculine and feminine energy applies to intimate relationships between two people.

Without polarity, relationships typically suck. When women are forced to be the masculine energy in a relationship, the relationships REALLY suck.

Are any women reading this turned on by feminine men? Maybe masculine women.

How about men who try to appease them?

Are any men reading this turned on my masculine women? Maybe feminine men.


By and large, women are not attracted to men who act like wusses. And men are not attracted to women who try to be alpha males.

Just look at how the world around you works.

Women want men, not immature wussy boys.

Though I get what you are saying, and I nod in agreement with the truth in this in the United States, I can only disagree that this is a universal thing.

Because in France, the women don't generally want the same kind of men. Personally, I am pretty american still, I like a man with muscles, I like a man who doesn't hesitate to project his power and responsibility, and can counter my very strong empathy with an ability to cut between and be a bit egotistical from time to time. Helps me with boundries.

But the women around me have actually said they find my husband scary, or intimidating. Some of the guys started a joke at work that he is a mafioso (because that is the latin image of a powerful man... power = corruption for them).

The other women find men attractive that I tend to look at as too effeminate and weak.

Their culture place a higher value on femininity, and that changes the relationship dynamics quite a lot.
"Femininity " even has a different idea to it for them- a strength and force that we don't habitually attribute to femininity.

For example, we consider a maternal behavior to be gentle, soft, nurturing, and without any pressure or force.
They see maternal behavior as quite strong, placing limits upon behavior and enforcing it- providing security and protection.

Funny thought I just had- I wonder if we can see much in a culture by what they eat? The largest part of their diet is probably dairy products, whereas we eat more meat. Perhaps it's just a coincidence.
I am floating off topic, sorry.

But I do see that in any relationship, you need two beings being opposing each other in being receptive and the other projective (either changing that role from time to time, or in a stable long term behavior).
We tend to think only in terms of sex- a man puts in the woman. But don't often think about the dynamic that happens in enfancy- in which the woman puts into the child! In fact, we make that very image taboo, something shameful, not even to be seen in public!

A female can project and a male can receive (or introject) too- and in this culture, the men like a strong woman quite a bit! But it doesn't mean she has a high powered job outside, makes a lot of money, and is insensitive to others- it means, for them, that she has a high sensitivity and empathy, and so guides those around her in determining how they should act or be in a way which respects others. The men actually like to have a woman telling them what to do, in fact. Women are considered wise in the ways of relationship and collective living.
Men are considered as not needing help being egotistical or gaining self confidence... they pretty much do that fine without any help.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird

So what your saying is that you dont like the oxford definition of what femininity is because it falls to close to reality, and really there is little more to it. I mean if like the dictionary says 'she wears high heals and makeup to feel more feminine" does not cut it then what does? You may want to take it up with them then, you know send them a letter ie the dictionary people, explaining how you think the whole thing should be changed.

No, I said that the Oxford dictionary is limited in it's focus on meanings. Not that it is "wrong", but that words can be used in different ways, with slightly different connatations.
That dictionary (as many that are geared towards the general public) will stick to and limit itself to the most superficial and traditional meanings.

There are words which represent different ideas in different contexts and schools of thought and study.
Without the background knowledge in a specific area, misunderstandings can happen.

Example:
The word "repression".

It has various meanings-
In psychology, it means- the ability to filter irrelevant memories from attempts to recall
In politics it means- the oppression or persecution of an individual or group for political reasons
In psychoanalysis it means- the psychological act of excluding desires and impulses from one's consciousness
In genetics, it means- the down-regulation of gene transcription by the action of repressor proteins binding to a promoter


Since less of the greater public has knowledge in these other areas, the political interpretation will be the only one used for a long time, as that what most people will recognize and use it for.
When the other meanings enter the pop culture and become more widespread, then they eventually enter the definitions of such dictionaries- but the spread of the knowledge have before the dictionary changes.

It now includes the psychological and psychoanalytic meanings because they became wider known through the seventies up until now.
It does not include the genetics meaning because that science has not entered the pop culture to such an extent yet (though I suspect it will as our advances and technology in that area are having a growth spurt).

My suggestion of changing the wording was simply because it seems there is some confusion when the terms of femininity and masculinity are used in a sociological way- as a cultural construction, not limited to sex of the individual.
I wondered if there might be more people with some knowledge of the eastern philosophies and views on qualites which are polar opposites, but not attached to physical sex.

But I guess not. It was just a suggestion thrown out there.

a reply to: Bluesma

It is a subject that is pertinant to me, as I have explained in the past, because leaving my own native country, I was faced with culture clashes which made my own conditioning painfully obvious to me .

Well your conditioning and pertiance is sort of obvious. But really why go on about it to me? You got to understand that none of what you think applies to you, applies to me. Or others for that matter. It is pointless to talk about it other then idle chatter.

You are supporting what I am saying. That men and women in the USA are conditioned to value highly masculine, or "yang" type of characteristics, and to reject or de-value feminine or "yin" characteristics. To help illustrate what that means, in a culture which values higher "Yin" type of characteristics (and rejecting the Yang ones), you would probably feel the men were overly effeminate.

Listen conditioning or no conditioning. That is there problem and issue. But your forget they are in there element, so really the only one who seems to have an issue about that is you. And only likely because you have been somewhat exposed to a few different elements. You could say it is there chosen faith.

EXACTLY why I so often bring it up- to provoke some thought. As long as you don't think about it, you can be subtly programmed to be a certain way, believe certain things, without ever having deliberated upon them and decided to integrate them.

Ya! OK. But again, they all chose there output, there is no bad guy here, merely life choices. So again, I really dont know what your getting on about. The truth is it is pretty much impossible to program things into anybody without them at first wanting it to. That is what socity is, they reflect eachother. So when you say so and so is more masculine or this or that...Well ya! Its because they want it like that. If it is not a conscious choice its an unconscious one. The flow of the river.

a reply to: Jamie1
What the hell are you talking about?

I was thinking this intimacy thing you were talking about may be a good thing. But then again, who knows what you mean by that or what crazy idea you got in your head. No offense. But I do not see how any of this has to do with anything.

I would much rather talk about that cat in that avatar. Whats your problem? Did you stick the poor thing in a dryer or something?

a reply to: Bluesma
I think and like I said before the established Oxford definition is pretty much accurate. I mean what else would define femininity more then high heals and makeup? Nothing right. In fact is that not what we were arguing a few threads back.

The definition of makeup, you know that one thread. As far as I am concerned its a pretty sealed deal. And society at large seems to show and agree with that. In fact you to from what I remember were going on about makeup like it was the one thing which defined you and the core of things. You seemed to be set on it for some reason.

As you can see. Now. Round and round it all goes.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

Oh for crying out loud, back to this again.

I have repeatedly tried to pull the focus OFF of such superficial things as make up, clothing.... to focus on deeper aspects of being, like personality characteristics and internal experience. You continually respond that "these things don't matter". It is not because you refuse to consider them that I am obsessed with objects and appearence. It is that you refuse to look beyond them.

a reply to: Bluesma
Oh I see well beyond them.

I however think there quite relevant. Simply because? Well there relevant. Between the two of us. I do not think I am the one who is incapable of seeing behind them. I think you just need to admit that if somebody does not actually do it and move beyond them. Well the last people capable of any of that would be females. Period.

So ya! It's not me who will keep coming back to all that. Its you all. I am just here to inform you all on that fact.

But anyways now that we have established that there is no loss of femininity, and so surprising like the other threads nothing but hype. So! ya. I think that is that. What else more is there to say on it that has not been said before. Besides words mean nothing, and even actions are becoming oblique. None of it is on parallel with anything you know. No issues ensue here but those you people keep making up.

My father use to have a player piano when I was a kid. One of the rolls he had was feminine men and masculine women I believe the song was from the early 20th century before ww1. So this is not new.
a reply to: Realtruth

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: Bluesma


But anyways now that we have established that there is no loss of femininity, and so surprising like the other threads nothing but hype. So! ya. I think that is that.

Except you described American women as "dudes with wigs".
Here we go again, around and around, you contradict yourself over and over, and when you have yourself sufficiently confused, you always say "it doesn't matter anyway. Nothing does. It is all a non-issue."

Whatever. Why pop in and post on topics that don't matter to you at all?

a reply to: Bluesma
No what i said is that if we go by that whole yin/yang or male or female energies as you said. Well then that would even be more confusing because yes, then most women if you go purely on an energy level they give off would be, well they would be dudes. I think you all have very little of this so called femininity energy in you all....Just saying you know. So ya! dudes in wigs. It would be very confusing.

Here we go again, around and around, you contradict yourself over and over, and when you have yourself sufficiently confused, you always say "it doesn't matter anyway. Nothing does. It is all a non-issue."

Off course it does not matter.

Not only that but the way you go about it is just false. First of all I dont know how you say that American society is more masculine, it may be that compared to french. But for the most part its not that much different. I mean I dont even know what or who to your implying this whole thing, definitely not me I am the black sheep in this society as well, and definitely most other dudes, because well they dont have that hard of a time at things, and neither do most women in both societies from all that I have seen.

And yes like I said. This is a non issue. If there is any real issues is that you all keep making stuff up over nothing. You and even that Jamie1 person may be right on some things. But for the most part, I think your wrong, and not only that, but entirely clueless as well on some things.

Whatever. Why pop in and post on topics that don't matter to you at all?

This whole thing has a interest to me. Though motley to get this whole bull# gone and done already. I mean I have never seen somebody who has so little issues make such a big fuss over nothing. It is literally like throwing a rock at the ground and missing. How bad a aim can you have...Jeez. I think that may be the problem, and it obviously needs to be addressed so everybody can go on with there life's, and quit making # up. No real issues here ensue.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: Bluesma
I think that may be the problem, and it obviously needs to be addressed so everybody can go on with there life's, and quit making # up. No real issues here ensue.

I don't know about you, but I am going about my life just fine. I enjoy spending some time in the morning before work in interesting discussion, and then going out to work hard and be engaged in my very active life.
Discussion of such topics do not slow me down or stop me from doing so.
If you find it a problem for you, and have difficulty going on with your life when you get involved in such topics, it might be a better idea to not enter into them in the first place, instead of going in to try to stop the discussion from happening between others?

Whatever. Maybe it is a convenient excuse to not go about your life actively, or something. To each his own.
But I will ignore you now, as you don't seem to have any real opinion on the topic of this thread.

a reply to: Bluesma
Exactly what I said. None of this is real, its all made up. You yourself have no issues, as I have said multiple times, and I have not seen any other woman as well, baring life stuff have that much of a real issue. Even the thing your talking about about Americans being more masculine is not true, I mean compared to the french ya a bit, but it just not true.

The majority of females here seem to have the run of things as well, there are more bossy types with handbag guys then anything, in fact I do believe the road to happiness for women is just to find somebody they can boss around, and its been like that for centuries, its a hive of queen bees and there machinations for the most part. Hey it may not be perfect but I think there is little to no real issues, so much so that mundane things like "oh some guy did not read my mind, so now I'm a turn lesbian or feminist" become a issue and is blown way out of proportion.

So yes! Its all just silly stuff. Way overwrought with all kinds of things. I mean there are real issues out there, but very little of the things you or others have said are part of anything but some personal peculiarities you have made for yourself's. And the real issues? Well that's another thing entirely.