Police who first arrived at scene in Paris left on their bikes; is this how you want the US police?

a reply to: grandmakdw

Methinks I see a fallacy...





There are literally dozens of things, you could have touched on, that would have made your argument make sense.

Sadly, none of what you stated, was one of them.

~Tenth

originally posted by: WeSbO
French police do have guns (sig sauer SP 2022), in France you have 3 "types" of police on the streets, Municipal police (who do not have guns) National police who are allowed to carry guns but some units don't carry guns as it is not really their job to intervene in these matters, and Gendarmes (military) who all carry guns.
And the 3 Policemen on the bikes where in the wrong place at the wrong time from what I have understood and one of them was killed.

Oh great, so they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Patrolling streets to "keep the citizenry safe".

They were more than useless as Police officers, the ones who survived the shooting fled.

They are little more than meter maids when it comes to protecting the citizenry.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Then why not focus on making the argument that "makes sense"
rather than a quite intellectual
spanking?
Are you speaking for ATS, or for yourself?
With no proviso, it appears you are speaking for ATS in general.

The truly thoughtful reply
would be to point out the
fallacies and then to
point out cogent arguments

and you did neither, but took the low road

if a non Mod said what you did, the post would be removed as off topic
for failing to point out the actual fallacies and
making a cogent on point argument

I expect you'll mark this post as off topic, but to be intellectually honest, you need to do the same for yourself.

a reply to: grandmakdw

And we all know how well the american system of policing through superior firepower works and how many civilians.. criminals and police end up dead in america .. only other place Ive seen body counts that high has been in combat ..

a reply to: grandmakdw

I am a member of ATS first.

If I was posting as a staff member, there would be appropriate tags to suggest such.

It's a logical fallacy by implying that the reason this occurred is that there are no armed police in France.

As if this was something new to Paris police forces. This has always been the case with policing in general, in European nations that have, on the historical end of things, very low gun related crime, or violent crime in general.

Armed police don't equal a less violent populace. Nor will it stop any crazy person, with ridiculous ideology from planning and executing an attack on innocent people.

~Tenth

originally posted by: grandmakdw
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The US has 100 times the population of the countries you reference.
That is to be expected.

No it is not to be expected. Just because we have a larger population in no way means people should be getting killed by the police. Cops in America have become trigger happy when they have other methods they can use to stop people like tazers.

a reply to: nullafides

The US is 20 times the population of the UK.

The greater density of almost anything, the more pressure, and the greater potential for strife.

I really don`t get your argument...

It`s only 5 times as much as the UK and only 4 times as much as Germany, so people are more crammed up in those countries wouldn`t you think?

People in my country are even more crammed up relativity, and we are the only country were you can meet up with all the Worlds big crime syndicates, police carry guns and yet the police shooting are way lower (almost all shooting are drug related (the big players)).

You`re however right in that normal quarrels get dealt with bare hands and end lots of times when one is down on the ground.

Gun violence in the US is highly concentrated in urban black neighborhoods. The vast majority (as in like over 80%) of gun violence typically involves black thugs shooting other black thugs and to a lesser extent Hispanic thugs. You have gangs essentially fighting over drug turf more than anything.

You really have to strip those populations out of the equation to get a more accurate comparison to Europe since many countries in Europe are a lot more homogenized. Gun control in the US has ZERO effect on the population committing the vast majority of the crime in the US.

Here in Chicago, the number of whites murdered in a given year is practically in the SINGLE DIGITS. So out of like 400 plus murders, typically 300-325 will be black another 50-75 Hispanic and then 10 or less white. Most major cities will follow the same exact pattern.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: Painterz
By contrast European nations where the police are usually unarmed have very low levels of gun violence.

Cops carry guns, criminals start carrying guns. A whole lot more people get shot.

The statistics prove it beyond question.


So yes. This is how I want it to be here. Yes, there are always going to be extreme cases where lunatics go on sprees like this. But in the long run it costs many more lives than it saves to have a fully armed police force.

So Your THEORY Is That The Criminals Only Carry Guns Because The Police Carry guns?
Then by contrast, if our police stopped carrying guns, the criminals would stop also...
Good luck with that one.

Not exactly a theory when its backed up by a wealth of supporting evidence.

Criminals will always arm themselves, regardless of laws. And psychopaths will always kill people.
The genie is out of the bottle with regards to guns in the USA, it cannot be put back. I thought the small animated segment in Bowling for Columbine summed up the USA, guns and fear pretty damned accurately.

Just look at all the innocent people being executed by steroid pumped morons with a badge, that alone proves that giving every police officer a gun is a very bad idea. But sadly its too late, the criminals are well armed in the USA, it would be pretty damn stupid to disarm the police now.
Im glad Im in the UK, if I have to deal with an officer with a chip on his shoulder and I put the idiot in his place, then at least I know it will not cost me my life.
There should only really be highly trained firearms units that have to have psychological assessments every six months, or after every discharge of a firearm, like they do here.
But we see the opposite, in the USA the police are being militarized, every kid that was bullied at school and wants revenge on the world can go and get themselves a badge and some very dangerous equipment, and the backing of the old boys network of corrupt police officers when they do kill an innocent person.

I would like to ask though, what the hell has what happened in Paris got to do with the US police?
Way to take the deaths of innocent people at the hands of crazed religious morons and turn it into a US political football.
NOT!

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: nullafides

The US is 20 times the population of the UK.

The greater density of almost anything, the more pressure, and the greater potential for strife.

I really don`t get your argument...

It`s only 5 times as much as the UK and only 4 times as much as Germany, so people are more crammed up in those countries wouldn`t you think?

People in my country are even more crammed up relativity, and we are the only country were you can meet up with all the Worlds big crime syndicates, police carry guns and yet the police shooting are way lower (almost all shooting are drug related (the big players)).

You`re however right in that normal quarrels get dealt with bare hands and end lots of times when one is down on the ground.

Normal quarrels dont get dealt with by fisticuffs anymore, they often end in someone getting stabbed or attacked with a hammer or a pint glass in the face. Fisticuffs was how we dealt with arguments in the 80's and 90's. Not anymore, people have "reps" to maintain. If that means stamping on the other guys head until blood comes out of his eyes, then thats what happens these days. I live in Edmonton, North London, kids are killing each other all the time over stupid quarrels.

a reply to: OneManArmy

Normal quarrels dont get dealt with by fisticuffs anymore, they often end in someone getting stabbed or attacked with a hammer or a pint glass in the face.

Most of the times fighting its still "normal" over here (The Netherlands).

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: OneManArmy

Normal quarrels dont get dealt with by fisticuffs anymore, they often end in someone getting stabbed or attacked with a hammer or a pint glass in the face.

Most of the times fighting its still "normal" over here (The Netherlands).

Im glad to hear it, Holland gets more and more appealing every day. I need to get my dutch up.

a reply to: OneManArmy

No need for it, because of subtitling English/American TV half our country is able to have good conversation in English. It`s a blessing compared to the other countries who have the money to do voice overs in their native language to have subtitling.

You have a lots of drugs related shooting lately, but it`s just the big dealers who kill each other, for normal people it`s not that dangerous if you behave normally.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien


You have a lots of drugs related shooting lately, but it`s just the big dealers who kill each other, for normal people it`s not that dangerous if you behave normally.

We have people killing each other over parking spaces. We have kids killing each other for a misplaced look.
We have kids killing each other to prove how "badass" they are. And yes we have kids killing each other for drugs territory.
NOT just big dealers, KIDS. Whats considered "normal" has changed a lot since I was a kid.

I think our police should start being armed with rubber bullets or something. If there intent is to not kill then why have real ones? Getting shot with multiple rubber bullets should still be enough to subdue the culprit.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: nullafides

The US is 20 times the population of the UK.

The greater density of almost anything, the more pressure, and the greater potential for strife.

I really don`t get your argument...

It`s only 5 times as much as the UK and only 4 times as much as Germany, so people are more crammed up in those countries wouldn`t you think?

People in my country are even more crammed up relativity, and we are the only country were you can meet up with all the Worlds big crime syndicates, police carry guns and yet the police shooting are way lower (almost all shooting are drug related (the big players)).

You`re however right in that normal quarrels get dealt with bare hands and end lots of times when one is down on the ground.

I was using pure numbers....The greater number of people, the greater pool of chance for anything to happen. Flower picking, knitting, anxiety, self harm, making love.....anything.



Like I said, maybe an incorrect viewpoint, I nor anyone else is truly an expert on why humankind behaves the way it does.


-NF

a reply to: Edumakated

Statistically, sure, you're theory make sense.

The only thing I can truly say to that, is that it is entirely plausible, if not probable, that whereas "race" (lord, I hate that term, we're all from the same race....just different pigmentation and cultures...) is a top layer of the consideration...I believe someone is really glazing this over when not taking into consideration economics.

I'm genuinely thinking that it's not "black" or "white" or "anything"....but economics that weights out those curves.




-NF

a reply to: nullafides

But the amount of people in one place is lager as to the US and the numbers which are used to compare are normalized to the population. So density of population is bigger looking at those countries and statistically the numbers of shootings (and police shootings) are also much lower.

You could also take the population of the whole of Western Europe as a size and still the numbers would be much lower, and it would be on a much smaller landmass.

originally posted by: nullafides
a reply to: Edumakated

Statistically, sure, you're theory make sense.

The only thing I can truly say to that, is that it is entirely plausible, if not probable, that whereas "race" (lord, I hate that term, we're all from the same race....just different pigmentation and cultures...) is a top layer of the consideration...I believe someone is really glazing this over when not taking into consideration economics.

I'm genuinely thinking that it's not "black" or "white" or "anything"....but economics that weights out those curves.




-NF

Yes, we are all human. However, my point is that you cannot divorce gun violence in the US from race because one group is practically responsible for the bulk of it. In addition, it isn't thorough analysis when comparing the US to Europe without mentioning that fact on the US side.

Economics is certainly correlated in that most of the violence is in poor neighborhoods. However, it doesn't mean it is causative factor especially in light of the fact that the level of violence in the black community is a relatively recent phenomenon (as in last 50 years) even though that same group has always been at the bottom of the economic factor and faced higher levels of racism. The more likely culprit is the breakdown of the family unit that caused out of wedlock birth rates to be at nearly 80% due to failed liberal war on poverty policies but I guess that would push us into another thread topic.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien


First of all, I believe I made a mistake. I should not have used the word "density", as it is being focused on rather than the pure numbers.

As I said earlier, more people, more events. Events both good and bad.



-NF