Doctors and Hospitals - why not protest them as well?

Seems this is an untapped resource for protesting as well. I guess it is only a matter of time before the protesters figure out that hospitals are allowing more blacks to die than whites.

Numbers and research don't lie! I feel that the "I Can't Breathe" and "Black Lives Matter" slogans are a bit more appropriate to this discussion.

While the claim is that LEO is killing off blacks at the moment, aren't hospitals the ones that are supposed to care for everyone? Maybe this is all just a part of the giant conspiracy to kill off a race right? Based on the numbers in the article, hospitals are allowing more blacks to die than whites at a much higher rate than LEO are causing.

However, our study suggests that racial disparities may be as much about the system in which black patients get their care as about patient- or physician-level factors. Selective referral, moving high risk surgical patients at hospitals with high mortality rates to other centers with better outcomes, is one obvious but likely impractical approach to addressing potential problems at hospitals that disproportionately treat black patients. Large numbers of patients would be involved and their access to low mortality rate centers (even if they could be readily identified) is uncertain. Moreover, removing surgical caseloads from hospitals that disproportionately treat black patients might worsen care for other patients by further eroding resources at those centers.

Black patients had higher crude mortality rates than white patients for 7 of the 8 operations, including coronary artery bypass, aortic valve replacement, abdominal aortic aneurysm repair, carotid endarterectomy, radical cystectomy, pancreatic resection, and esophagectomy. Among these 7 procedures, odds ratios of mortality (black versus white) ranged from 1.23 (95% confidence interval, 1.18–1.29) for CABG to 1.61 (95% confidence interval, 1.28–2.03) for esophagectomy. Adjusting for patient characteristics had modest or no effect on odds ratios of mortality by race. However, there remained few clinically or statistically significant differences in mortality by race after we accounted for hospital. Hospitals that treated a large proportion of black patients had higher mortality rates for all 8 procedures, for white as well as black patients.

Source

Among Medicare beneficiaries, black patients were more likely to be readmitted after hospitalization for surgical procedures. Since racial disparities in readmission rates are mediated both by patients' race and the hospital at which care is delivered, efforts at reducing disparities should focus not only on race-based measures but also on improving outcomes of care at minority-serving hospitals.

Source

I wrote this post simply to show that race, while it may be skewed one way for deaths, does not necessarily mean that RACISM is the reason for it.

It has to do with the general areas some of these hospitals and doctors serve. There are so many reasons outside of race for these things to occur it is ridiculous.

Simply trying to point out that race can be a factor in everything if that is what you allow it to be, but I don't really think hospitals and doctors are letting specific races die on a larger scale than any other.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Perhaps it has to do with intentions. I honestly think that the medical establishment wants to help people even though I'm totally against "for profit" health care that is more concerned about the health and well being of the stockholders than the ordinary citizen.

Law enforcement on the other hand seems to have a "we/them" mindset and that leads to conflict.

It isn't the hospital's fault that they are in a low income area and they do not receive as much for their services as ones that get used by people with better insurances.

There could be some discrimination in hospitals, it depends on the people working there and their attitudes. But the main difference that causes this is the workload and the tools and quality of the doctors of the hospital. Some doctors are really good, some are mediocre. The hospitals with less income cannot afford to pay doctors as well so they often get new doctors with little experience.

We do not need to be protesting these places. It is a problem with the healthcare system in this country. A socialized healthcare system will help but the facts still remain, there will always be an inequality in the system, the rich get the best doctors. The rich will not even try to hide that fact, they know it.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Perhaps it has to do with intentions. I honestly think that the medical establishment wants to help people.

Law enforcement on the other hand seems to have a "we/them" mindset and that leads to conflict.

Yeah, the WE are the cops and the innocent citizens minding their own business, literally, like the shop owners in Ferguson and NYC.

THEM are the criminals who initiate the conflict by stealing things, robbing people, and breaking the laws.

The cops are charged with the responsibility of enforcing the laws, and protecting the innocent citizens from being victimized by the criminal citizens.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Numbers and research don't lie! I feel that the "I Can't Breathe" and "Black Lives Matter" slogans are a bit more appropriate to this discussion.

Let's clarify this shall we? Your assertion is that racial skews in the mortality in health care outcomes is a more outrageous scenario than murder by State operatives? It's more outrageous, therefore is is more worthy of civil liberties protester's time.

You would be doing ATS a service if, instead of putting out this rubbish you would openly explore the elements you are substituting for logic, reason and human empathy.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Perhaps it has to do with intentions. I honestly think that the medical establishment wants to help people.

Law enforcement on the other hand seems to have a "we/them" mindset and that leads to conflict.

Could be, but both institutions must take an oath to uphold for all citizens. Hospitals, based on the articles I linked, seem to be killing blacks off at a much faster pace though.

I am pretty sure that in any situation that life was threatened it would be an "us versus them" scenario. I know if it came down to me or someone else, regardless of race, I would definitely try my hardest for it not to be me that lost.

Not sure why most think that there is some mentality across the board for all involved in any of the current race relations crap. It just hasn't been the case from what I have seen....

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Numbers and research don't lie! I feel that the "I Can't Breathe" and "Black Lives Matter" slogans are a bit more appropriate to this discussion.

Let's clarify this shall we? Your assertion is that racial skews in the mortality in health care outcomes is a more outrageous scenario than murder by State operatives? It's more outrageous, therefore is is more worthy of civil liberties protester's time.

You would be doing ATS a service if, instead of putting out this rubbish you would openly explore the elements you are substituting for logic, reason and human empathy.

Had you bothered to read the articles, they are specifically Medicare related, which IS government funded state operatives. And yes, more blacks are dying from the same procedures than whites in this system by a fairly large gap.

You would be doing ATS a service if you would read before commenting.....

originally posted by: Vasa Croe




Had you bothered to read the articles, they are specifically Medicare related, which IS government funded state operatives. And yes, more blacks are dying from the same procedures than whites in this system by a fairly large gap.

.

I think you know as well as I do that it's environmental poverty, lack of pre natal care, lack of education, lack of access, no insurance, substance abuse, that is the cause of more blacks dying in the medical system.

It's really transparent what you are trying to do here.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Vasa Croe




Had you bothered to read the articles, they are specifically Medicare related, which IS government funded state operatives. And yes, more blacks are dying from the same procedures than whites in this system by a fairly large gap.

.

I think you know as well as I do that it's environmental poverty, lack of pre natal care, lack of education, lack of access, no insurance, substance abuse, that is the cause of more blacks dying in the medical system.

It's really transparent what you are trying to do here.

Great. You listed all the variables, other than skin pigmentation, leading to the hospital stats that lead to more black deaths in hospitals.

Can you come up with the same sort of list of causation variables, other than skin pigmentation, that might lead to people being shot by police?

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Vasa Croe




Had you bothered to read the articles, they are specifically Medicare related, which IS government funded state operatives. And yes, more blacks are dying from the same procedures than whites in this system by a fairly large gap.

.

I think you know as well as I do that it's environmental poverty, lack of pre natal care, lack of education, lack of access, no insurance, substance abuse, that is the cause of more blacks dying in the medical system.

It's really transparent what you are trying to do here.

Sure...just as much as it is lack of all of those things being the reason they live in ghetto's and are shot by police more often because crime rates are higher there. So from your post, you are saying that blacks, in general, have a disposition to die more than others?

My whole point was to be transparent here.....not trying to hide anything. Just wondering why these places are not under the same scrutiny for killing MORE than LEO ever has. The arguments for LEO being racist and targeting blacks is just as valid as one for healthcare doing the same.

Aside from that, these figures are taken with whites and blacks at the same healthcare facilities and medicare providers.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Vasa Croe




Had you bothered to read the articles, they are specifically Medicare related, which IS government funded state operatives. And yes, more blacks are dying from the same procedures than whites in this system by a fairly large gap.

.

I think you know as well as I do that it's environmental poverty, lack of pre natal care, lack of education, lack of access, no insurance, substance abuse, that is the cause of more blacks dying in the medical system.

It's really transparent what you are trying to do here.

Sure...just as much as it is lack of all of those things being the reason they live in ghetto's and are shot by police more often because crime rates are higher there. So from your post, you are saying that blacks, in general, have a disposition to die more than others?

My whole point was to be transparent here.....not trying to hide anything. Just wondering why these places are not under the same scrutiny for killing MORE than LEO ever has. The arguments for LEO being racist and targeting blacks is just as valid as one for healthcare doing the same.

Aside from that, these figures are taken with whites and blacks at the same healthcare facilities and medicare providers.

The first place to start would be Chicago. They had 82 shootings over July 4th weekend alone. In one city.

a reply to: Jamie1

I wonder how many of them died in the hospital and how many were shot by LEO versus dying in the street and shot by the same race as the victim.

It's no secret that minorities have higher densities in lower economic areas. These same areas are often 'food deserts' where high quality, fresh vegetables, fruits and proteins are lacking. Residents of these areas are frequently forced to consume higher quantities of pre-packaged and 'fast' foods. Med-Surg outcomes are highly correlated with the underlying health of the patient. Significantly lower access to preventative health care, delays in seeking care when needed, and diets based on lower quality foods makes a patient more at-risk. Google 'food deserts' and you can read the studies citing increased morbidity and mortality rates.

originally posted by: jtma508
It's no secret that minorities have higher densities in lower economic areas. These same areas are often 'food deserts' where high quality, fresh vegetables, fruits and proteins are lacking. Residents of these areas are frequently forced to consume higher quantities of pre-packaged and 'fast' foods. Med-Surg outcomes are highly correlated with the underlying health of the patient. Significantly lower access to preventative health care, delays in seeking care when needed, and diets based on lower quality foods makes a patient more at-risk. Google 'food deserts' and you can read the studies citing increased morbidity and mortality rates.

I have no doubts about this at all. I was pointing out in the articles that I linked that white versus black for the same procedures, the death rates were higher for blacks post-op and for return procedures and from the same facilities. While the same facilities suggests that the whites were in the same "environment" as the blacks, it is not stated. If they are then what is the excuse and why is it not being BLASTED all over the net....mush higher rate of death in this case and clearly a grounds for the same racial argument as the whole LEO crapfest.

This world is falling apart in my opinion and very little people are willing to look beyond these superficial issues.

The fact this study was released? Is this then fuelling a fire that is going on? Where you would like to think that everyone, everywhere, would be trying their best to avoid this racism and division. Why?

Even if the studies are "just and sound statistically" statistics can be used to twist things in a lot of complex ways if you chose not to look at the raw data and regions and think of the many possible other influences that could effect these figures. Which unfortunately most people don't have time to do themselves unless they are passionate enough to meticulously check these statistics... Time consuming, gotta work, gotta do this etc etc so they never do get checked.

The bigger issue as I mention above is why? Why are these studies coming out of the woodwork now, to fuel a fire that is so detrimental to us? I can only speculate and cannot be certain of this but what I believe and I hope others can see also is...

1) Divide and conquer - Keep your "enemy" fighting amongst themselves, fuel those fights between them. They will destroy each other and never be able to rise together to over throw... This is old warfare tactics and can be seen in almost every book on conquest or strategy available from Sun Tzu to modern time why would we forget these tactics exist? it is still used and which is very effective against a large populations who overwhelm you in numbers. So if this is the case why are we (common people) the "enemy"? Well putting aside conspiracy theories like agenda 21 and human population control, it is more and more apparent that there is growing concerns over the corruption of money and our amongst the population. Are these fears reasonable? I say yes.. But this is purely just based the small part of the world I can see and am trying to understand.

2) Could be completely outside of the material capitalist complex "illuminati" or whatever... and people for lack of "boredom" or otherwise are fuelling it because it creates drama and stories to fuel their life with meaning even if their idea of excitement is essentially creating riots and creating hostility.. Think of the bullies picking on the weedy kids at school, why do they do that? Because to the bully, its entertainment, no matter how much we try to say its complex psychological issues most "bullies" will only assert what everyone already knows... man is addicted to power and power corrupts.

3) Its much smaller than I am making it out to be in those above and it is like number 2 above, fuelled for drama, because controversy sells. If you cannot sell a product to everyone... sell a product ( or image, story, study, report) to a large group of dedicated people who will lap it up. Cha ching!

Personally, the more I stand back and try to see the bigger picture, number 1) makes the most sense to me however skeptics will argue this till their death and "nut job conspiracy theorists" like me will argue the opposite.

It isn't always the hospitals or doctors either. Sometimes the populations they serve are astoundingly ignorant of their conditions and how to best treat and avoid them. Poor populations often do not know how to best treat their own chronic conditions. They don't even call it diabetis, but the "sugar." They are also far less likely to have the discipline to follow through on the things they need to do to maintain and control those conditions.

And I say this from both research and personal knowledge. My brother-in-law's family almost all have diabetes except for him and none of them do what they should to properly maintain their conditions. I've lost count of the number of times the older brother has gone into diabetic coma because he drinks like a fish, and his mother almost certainly died early because she refused to follow her dietary restrictions. There are constant diabetic ulcers, have been some amputated toes ...

You have to take into account a population's unwillingness to follow through and manage themselves. Sadly, blacks are disproportionately likely to fall into the poor population.

I'd like to see outcomes for blacks who do not fall into poor categories. Do their outcomes come out similarly badly?

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: Jamie1

I wonder how many of them died in the hospital and how many were shot by LEO versus dying in the street and shot by the same race as the victim.

There are roughly 3 times as many blacks in just Chicago murdered by other blacks as shot by LEO in the entire country in one year, based on the most recent data I've seen.

126 blacks killed by LEO in the entire country vs close to 400 killed in just Chicago.

Your point is well taken. LEO is the least of the problem if the focus is on reducing black deaths.

Here's a question: How many black deaths does LEO PREVENT by policing the ganglands of places like Chicago?