The Holy Rosary

a reply to: FlyersFan

We can agree to disagree.

Some do Worship Mary imo.

My point was not that they do, but that worshipping Mary and worshipping Satan are equally wrong.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
If Mary had to be sinless because the only way to give birth to someone who is sinless is to be without sin, then Mary's mother would have had to have been sinless, to give birth to sinless Mary. And her mother before her, her mother before her, until we reach Eve.

That has been discussed at length with theologians through the centuries. It was rejected by the church and said to be not necessary. Special grace was given to Mary alone to be born without original sin. Since God works outside of time and space, and in 'god land' Jesus had already saved everyone, then by grace Mary was saved while still in the womb. There was no need for St. Anne (Mary's Mother) to be born without original sin, she wasn't carrying God incarnate in her womb.

Ineffablis Deus
History of belief in Immaculate Conception of Mary

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Some do Worship Mary imo..

Anyone who worships Mary is doing so against Catholic teaching. I have yet to see anyone in a Catholic church or Catholic setting worship her as God. I know there are some Islander traditions that have St. Muerto or something like that ... it's some strange voodoo cross between Mary and the grim reaper ... and they worship that. But as far as the Catholic church goes, it's not a practice and it's not allowed.

a reply to: FlyersFan

It's OT so no need to go further, my post you quoted was someone calling Mary the Goddess and saying they pray to the Goddess.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04
I dunno about OT. People claim the Rosary is Mary worship and this thread is about the Rosary so ... But okay. I've said what I wanted to. Have a nice day. /done

To me...praying...is a conversation with God. When I pray I am specific..God does answer. I talk to God and tell him about my needs and needs of others...I also thank Heaven for blessings too. I speak in my own words...I know God and Heaven hear me.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

you are completely ignorant on the subject

You are completely blind to the "Christian Mysteries". The same myopic view that you present is the same view that allows men to trample the earth, destroy habitats and species, wage supremacist genocidal wars and enslave our brothers and sisters.

Life could have come from any woman

Every woman is any woman. All women are representatives of the intrinsic feminine force of nature. "The Goddess" is the body that gives life.

Mary, the Earthy Mother of Jesus, gave The Son of Man, life and humanity, two thing he needed to accomplish his mission.

There was no sex

There was spiritual penetration. God and Mary became one, and she conceived his child, through HER flesh and HIS spirit. (This is exactly what "Mother Earth" does. She's a virgin too, you know, The Great Virgin) Did God stop being one with Mary? Did he forsake her for another "any woman"? For all intents and purposes, Mary was the Bride of "God", just as Jesus, The Son of Man's, church is the Bride of Christ.

The Holy Family: YHVH

Yod: God the Father
He: God the Mother
Vah: God the Son
He: God the Daughter

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: windword

What was it that Jesus sacrificed on the cross?

HIS LIFE!

I fail to understand your point. Many died on the cross. Mary dying on the cross would have been meaningless. Only Jesus could have done it. Life could have come from any woman, not just Mary, which is exactly what I stated. There was nothing special about Mary, nothing that made her worthy or deserving.

So now you're equating reverence to Mary, the Mother of your God, to Satan?

Was Mary the Bride of Yahweh, or just a "One night stand"? I mean, Christians are the bride of Christ, right? What was Mary, chopped liver?

Worshipping Mary or Satan, both are equally evil and sinful. Mary was neither bride nor one night stand, I fail to see the point of anything you posted, and you clearly have little to no grasp of the subject matter. Or can you point me to Scripture that says either of them?

Hilarious. You're arguing about storybook characters as though they were real. Who would win a cage match? Frodo or Sam or Pippin?

Has to be Pippin. The bromance between Frodo and Sam is too strong, lol.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
I dunno about OT. People claim the Rosary is Mary worship and this thread is about the Rosary so ... But okay. I've said what I wanted to. Have a nice day. /done

I am speaking from a position of ignorance (i am not a Catholic), and i do apologise for resurrecting this specific discussion, but in some definitions it could perhaps be technically argued that praying to Mary is a form of worship.

The definitions of worship are:

1.

a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed: a chapel where worship is held daily.

2. Ardent admiration or love; adoration: the worship of celebrities.

3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

In that regard, showing deep respect and adoration for Mary, to the point of praying to her, could be considered worship of an idol it would seem (at least according to the above definitions). Indeed, i thought it interesting how the Catholic 10 commandments differ to those found elsewhere in that it does not include the statement prohibiting the worship and making of idols.

I'm not trying to cast allegations on or towards you. This was just an interesting topic i figured, and thought it would be pertinent to raise in regards to that line of discussion. I mean no offence.

originally posted by: daaskapital
i thought it interesting how the Catholic 10 commandments differ to those found elsewhere in that it does not include the statement prohibiting the worship and making of idols.

Look at the original 10 commandments and how long they are compared to the abbreviated Christian versions.
Catholic bible 101 - 10 commandments

No idol worship is covered in the first commandment - I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. If you worship an idol then you have another god other than the One True God.

If you look at the 10 commandments in scripture, they are much longer than the Catholic and Protestant abbreviated versions.

The 2,000 year old Christian 10 commandments
1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

The 500 year Christian 10 Commandments
1. You shall have no other gods but me.
2. You shall not make unto you any graven images
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
4. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5. Honor your mother and father
6. You shall not murder
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

The protestants take the first commandment and split it in two - highlighting no other god and no graven images. The Catholics leave it all together and split the last commandment into two - do not covet wife and do not covet goods.

a reply to: daaskapital

I hear ya' but ...
Catholic Catechism
It says worship belongs to God alone. This is Catholic teaching.
The rosary isn't worship. It's a meditation and a prayer request.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Okay, cool. Thanks for the clarification. I can see where one could interpret the point of idol worship in the Catholic variant of the commandments. As i said, i was speaking from a position of ignorance...

As for worshiping though, would you say that it is possible to worship an idol (say Mary for example) while still bowing to the one true god? It would seem, to me at least, that it would be possible to worship God, but still fall into the trap of worshiping (obviously to a lesser extent) an idol (through adoration, respect and praying etc).

Thanks.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Cool.

I guess it just comes down to the fact that by meditating through the rosary, some may take it too far and fall into the trap of worship (when regarding the actual definition itself, regardless of Catholic teachings). Obviously, it wouldn't apply for most though. It seems that the Catholic teachings of worship are intrinsic enough so as to not lead people down the wrong path...even though the rare few may end up inadvertently treading it.

Anyway, i do apologise for bringing the discussion back up. Thanks for the clarification.

originally posted by: daaskapital
would you say that it is possible to worship an idol (say Mary for example) while still bowing to the one true god?

I'm sure you'll agree that anyone on the planet can have a disordered attachment that would lead them away from God or what God wants for them. Food. Sex. Heck, even ATS could be a disordered attachment for some. If people get more attached to Mary than to God, then there is a disorder. But when worship is followed as the Catholic catechism states, there is no disordered attachment to Mary over God. In fact asking Mary to pray for us and using the Rosary for meditation brings people closer to God.

That's how it's set up and that's been my personal experience.

As with anything religiously related, there are those who may get turned around a bit and whatever they are doing ends up dysfunctional. It happens in Protestant church groups with different things as well. However, when Catholics and/or Protestants follow their teachings properly, no disordered attachments should happen.

Feel free to disagree. It's fine.

a reply to: daaskapital

The discussion is 'The Rosary' and you are 100% on topic. It's all good.

This is one of the many good things about ATS. People can have polite conversations and ask questions about things from others and get information to think about. Discussion opens minds and hearts ... it helps people understand each other and get along better.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Yeah, haha.

Some of the material from sites out there are shaky. It's always good to discuss these things with people with
first hand knowledge.

Thanks for the information.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Well they it is said that Mary was born out of a miracle having her parents being barren and old with no children prior to her being born.

My understanding is that she had an eternal soul, being a being which never has not existed. I get this idea from prophesies of Her in the OT and especially from king Solomon's inspired words saying, 'before the universe existed, I existed in God'. It's something like that but it does no justice to the actual passage.

My experience praying the rosary is very amazing. The Rosary takes me back to God's presence no matter how far i wonder

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I reread your posts and am scratching my head a little as to what you are trying to argue.

The Rosary IS A Catholic object used in meditation and in prayers of intercession. Catholics quote Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for them. John stated the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
So Catholics do offer prayers direct to God AND ask the saints and angels to carry their prayer to god direct.

It appears you are spending energy arguing Catholics are worshiping Mary? No one is worshiping Mary, it is not taught to Catholics and you have argued over 4 pages a very old protestant argument about something that actually isn't in the OP. If you say you think they are worshiping Mary, does not make it so.

The saints of which Mary IS ONE in Catholicism are used to intercede their prayers to god. I personally find it a contradiction that god may need help to hear the prayer unless it is offered in bowls by the saints (Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints) but thats theirs to believe, so I think Occam you may consider arguing they are incorrect to even have saints needed to have god hear prayers when a OMNIPOTENT god already would hear these prayers... rather arguing Catholics worship Mary.

To the OP one of my favourite decorations in my house is my grans beautiful silver and Crystal rosary she had blessed by the pope. I did find years of meditative comfort in years gone by (am now an atheist) so I smiled when I read your post in memory and agree wholeheartedly if trained how to use a rosary , they are a great way to "click" into a meditative state. Islam and Buddhism all have prayer beads of sorts.

S & F


On a side note for people discussing scripture I always use to find this next point useful to keep in mind :
The bible has had at least 1400 amendments from the earliest text that was found 400 years after he walked the earth. Begging for people to adhere to exacts when those exacts have been interpreted and amended so many times is a waste of time.
Unfortunately if you are going to believe in the bible you must allow people leeway of interpretations as nothing is Cannon to Jesus' actual era.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I am deeply moved by the responses in this thread. The genuine concern for souls, the sincere seeking, and the utter civility shown from among our various walks of life is a true blessing.

I too have thought as you Zazz. For me, there is a glorious humility to be gleaned from the God of the living, Who very clearly doesn't need us to make things happen, yet loves us so much, He provides inspiration all around us. From the Fibonacci spiral in your fingerprint to that of our Milky Way, from Jesus to all of His Saints with whom He is pleased, the opportunity is there and so tangible to have that personal relationship.

Regardless of nuances and games of semantics across the Babel language barriers, the overall message has been confirmed to be consistent according to top historians, archaeologists, linguistic anthropologists, and other lovers of puzzles. The post-Babel madness was shown to be subservient to the Pentecostal tongues of fire. These tongues are still at work today.

There is confirmation that people have found New Testament scripture which dates to at least as early as the second century, possibly the first as debated in the link below. Paul's personal letters were logically written in the first century. The Canon may not have been solidified until at the Councils almost 400 years after His Resurrection, but certainly the manuscripts existed much earlier.

www.dts.edu...

Peace always

originally posted by: backcase
ea reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I agree with you, but I also believe that God is with the Mother, and praying WITH her is like going to God's soft spot.

Sometimes, when I am sinful and ashamed of my human condition, I go to Her and get bandaged up, and made able to take up my cross again. I do this in the eyes of the Mother, who watches the scene of Calvary

My issue is that no where in the bible does it say that we should pettition Mary in prayer. None of the Apostles mentioned the use of rosery beads. Prayer is always directed to the Father.

Luke 11: 27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

Mary played her role in God's plan, but she is not a point of focus. We step out of line by going to Mary in prayer rather than the Father Himself.