Did Christ Die deliberately to make us feel Guilty?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Hey, did you see the article I posted right here on this thread the other day? :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Israeli Founder Contests Founding Myths
January 3, 2015

The Torah (or Old Testament) is a master work of literature and faith, but it tells many mythological tales that have little or no basis in real history, as Uri Avnery, one of Israel’s founders, has had the courage to declare, with an introduction from retired U.S. diplomat William R. Polk.

This is one of the FOUNDERS of modern-day Israel.

Even if one would like to believe that the Bible only exaggerates real events, the fact is that not even a tiny mention of the exodus, the conquest of Canaan or King David has been found. They just did not happen.

Is this important? Yes and no. The Bible is not real history. It is a monumental religious and literary document, that has inspired untold millions throughout the centuries. It has formed the minds of many generations of Jews, Christians and Muslims.

But history is something else. History tells us what really happened. Archeology is a tool of history, an invaluable tool for the understanding of what took place. These are two different disciplines, and never the twain shall meet.

Sorry to rain on your parade. None of it happened.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Hey, did you see the article I posted on another thread the other day? :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I posted in that thread.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

It's THIS thread.
Sorry - got confused. It was earlier in this thread. On page 3

Did Christ Die deliberately to make us feel Guilty?

I don't think it's going to be possible to beat this out as Best Thread Title of 2015. We'll see, I guess.

!

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I think you misunderstand why I said "you're kidding right"?

I've heard every single argument that anyone on this planet can give towards the idea that Jesus was God... HE was not God... you can not show me anything new... or anything I haven't read a million times before...

the simple fact is HE was not God in the flesh... it wasn't something his followers believed... it wasn't something Jesus believed himself... HE didn't say before Abraham was ME the I AM... the wording used is very specific, and it does not mean I AM GOD... he was saying he is the essence of God...

Everything within the gospels points towards exactly what im saying aside from a few vague passages that Christians use as proof texts... but actually only prove that they will look for anything to prove he was God...

They will stitch and sow pieces of texts together, and use everything they can... in come cases even blatantly lie to enforce their beliefs... its nonsense

Im pretty sure I even know why he was made God in the flesh... I personally think it was because of this issue jews have with associations with God... they didn't want to consider the messiah a blasphemer.... so they had to make him God or admit he was executed for a just reason...

But hey to each their own... IF you believe he was God... its all good...

I personally believe his Father IS God... but I also believe that his Father was NOT the OT God

These are just things we will never agree on...

HE was the son of God, exactly as he considered himself.. Not God in the flesh like john said

but again my friend... to each there own eh

a reply to: Akragon

you can not show me anything new... or anything I haven't read a million times before...

Then there isn't any point in us arguing over it man. Just don't become a Christian, we believe Jesus is divine.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That's yet another issue... I do as well...

but my definition of "divine" is a little broader then yours as we've already discussed in another thread...

you believe divine is God nothing more nothing less...

whereas I believe divine is anything from God... Which includes the son of God... who is not God

a reply to: Shiloh7

I understand the thrust of your opening statements however it then degrades into faulty circular logic to ridicule Christianity.There are much more logical and reasonable ways to present evidence of Christianity’s multitude of faulty doctrines however faulty logic is not one of them.

There is a very simple reason the religious Jews plotted to have Yahoshua killed and succeeded.They(the Jewish religious leaders) hated him for exposing who they were.It was inevitable they have him murdered because they were murderers.His death served a completely different purpose than to cause guilt.The fact is it is impossible to “know” what his death did by believing (if it did in fact happened) therefore it doesn’t matter at all what anyone “believes” it did .

All the speculation of belief what it was(or even if it happened) are meaningless.If Yahoshua was the son of the creator God it has an immense amount of importance or if it is not true it’s the same situation…..belief in both cannot change or effect in any way what happened (or didn’t happen).

The only thing that is effected is the way people act because they believe one or the other (or anything in between).It is ludicrous to believe that whatever man believes can effect anything a creator God does so it is all a moot point except in the way you react to your belief.Some will die in vain to defend their belief in it.Others never even think about it at all.If those were the only choices the latter would be more profitable.

The fact is a person will “hold” onto their beliefs either way.They either believe Jesus did so and so or they don’t or somewhere in between however, it does not effect the truth at all because it’s just a bunch of beliefs.The only guilt is the guilt the believer imposes on others or themselves.

a reply to: Akragon

whereas I believe divine is anything from God

So the devil? The Sun and Moon? Turtles?

a reply to: Shiloh7

Ah - my favourite part of Catholic dogma heh.

As a poster stated - Guilt in itself is a normal and necessary part of our emotional responses - it's feeling guilty all the time which leads to disturbances in the mental wellbeing of a person.

I believe that after Constantine and the fall of the Roman Empire - Christianity was used as a form of social control - to cement power and authority in leaders, and perpetuate the peasant/master relationship. What better way to dull the lower classes from rising up than a fear of eternal damnation, and guilt that Jesus died so you may live. I think the Communists had it right that religion is the opiate of the masses.

But - I am still Christian.

For me, his death represented something much more than for me to feel guilty all the bloomin' time for a cruel end to a spiritual life. His life, his suffering and his death (whether real or just another part of the dogma built up over the centuries) is something I reflect on every day I am on this Earth. Everytime I am criticised for being different, thinking different, not living up to expectations of society and that of my Ego. Everytime I fall and think I cant go on, when hit with loss, financial problems, ill-health, relationship issues, I think about giving up the ghost. But my life and all the experiences which come with it, is the cross I bear to Calvary. His death is a tale of love, determination and above all redemption.

The moral is - He died to save us, this is true. We need to acknowledge in ourselves our faults, flaws, and any wrong doings and forgive ourselves.

(PS: 1 coffee today - hopefully it made sense)

a reply to: auroraaus

I believe that after Constantine and the fall of the Roman Empire

Well, the fall of the western leg. The eastern leg of the Empire lasted for another 1,000 years. It's commonly called the "Ottoman Empire".

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Well the Byzantines first - then Ottoman.

Good point though.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

whereas I believe divine is anything from God

So the devil? The Sun and Moon? Turtles?

Sure why not... but only the Ninja kinda turtle

obviously...

a reply to: Akragon

So your view is pantheism?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

No... theres only one true God

There are also various "entities" aside from us that people have considered god or gods in the past...

Both Jesus and Paul... and other writers from ancient texts confirm this...

divine is not just God... but he is the source of all divinity

Angels are divine messengers... you consider the book "divinely inspired" etc etc...

It is the people over time assuming things about Christ's words who formulate their faulty beliefs into religion. To know Christ never wanted corrupt religion using him as a way to make people contradict their natural state which causes guilt.

a reply to: Akragon

Now I'm confused, just previously you said you believed that everything that comes (created by) from God is divine. (deity) And even said that you would consider the devil, the Sun and Moon, and animals divine. (they were created by God) You just said that a few posts back my friend, so in light of that:


"Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God. Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god."

Pantheism

"divine" = deity/god

Divine

Of course he did, if the bible is to be believed.

This image sums it up better than I ever could.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I honestly thought we were just being silly...

Though yes I do believe all things have a certain divine status... the material universe being the lowest of that status... and things that possess life maintain a different status in that hierarchy...

We have that spark of the divine within... as does all life, but again there is a certain hierarchy

Angels & demons IF they exist must also have that same spark obviously, each having their own purpose in the grand scheme of things as well

originally posted by: TheArrow
Of course he did, if the bible is to be believed.

This image sums it up better than I ever could.

That would be the anti-Trinitarian position ^^.