Did Christ Die deliberately to make us feel Guilty?

originally posted by: rupertg
Maybe right before Jesus was crucified he was looking up at the sky
and praying "Hey, pops I can really use of those divine miracles right about now".

He could have ordered to miracles himself, he had the authority, but he didn't have the will to sin. He did what he had to do out of love for us.

He looked up to the sky and said, "It is finished" because he did what he had to do to fulfill the prophecies, and "Father, in your hands I commit my spirit."

Did Christ Die deliberately to make us feel Guilty?

No. Religious guilt is a human control invention.
Jesus was love and mercy. Not guilt.

a reply to: rupertg

Even the crucifixion was planned for the time it took place so they could get christ down from the cross quickly and the sponge probably drugged him which he was offered so we have a figurative situation and a gospel that tells us that he was to lead an uprising as the messiah against the romans.

Its a story we are slowly unravelling but the best part for me is the records concerning eusabius and the early church fathers whose deceipt and sheer contempt for the public is unbelievable. The NagHammadi scrolls is so worth reading as a new light is thrown on the whole topic.

a reply to: Shiloh7
No

originally posted by: Shiloh7
Did Christ Die deliberately to make us feel Guilty?

Depends on which side you're on ? if you are on the side that accepts his gift, your feelings of guilt go away. If you are on the side that dont accepts his gift, your feelings of guilt worsens.

He did not come to judge the world, but by not accepting his gift to you, you judge your self, to this hell

a reply to: Shiloh7

Thing is, the Jews didn't consider him the True Messiah at all.

There idea of the True Messiah said to be a warrior poet, much like how the old popes would like to display or believe themselves to be. That the True Messenger would of uphold the Jewish Laws, and the usual punishment would of been given, more along the line like it was Moses unleashing the 10 plagues up on Egypt.

The Jews consider him(Hate or Love it) to be a False Messiah or Prophet, where he didn't change anything and possibly made a mockery of their traditions. It a well known fact in Jewish Lore, that God has no idol or face, much like Mohammed or sects of religious figures and seems almost impossible to actually worship.

Jesus on the other hand comes in, claims himself that he'd uphold the laws, but in no way did he claim to be God himself like the Christians believe. As to how he became the popularized idol he is today probably has it own story, and him being Jewish claiming to follow the traditions of his people, while allowing himself to be the face of god, is actually hypocritical to their traditions.

Did he call himself the Son of Man or the Son of God, King of the Jews, or the King of Kings?

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Jamie1
I think guilt has it's place, just as any other mental and emotional process. Guilt is useful and needed short term. It is hanging on to guilt, allowing it to fester, and create repressive behavior within us that becomes a major stumbling block in our lives. imo.

For sure. I agree. Any emotion is useful if we use it to learn and grow, and move forward with the lessons.

Thanks for clarifying that!!!

saved by grace, comfort and peace,

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

peace,not guilt

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: Jamie1

But do you think he died to make us feel guilty? I agree with you that guilt is a destructive force, but we can get past it by putting right what we are feeling guilty over - or someone prods us to feel guilty about something we have done and not realised its something uunkind or destructive..

It doesn't matter what I think, but I will share it with you.

There are some things that can't be put "right."

Just thinking you need to put something "right" might or might not be beneficial.

I have a belief that the universe is perfect the way it is. and that even things we may perceive in the moment as being horrible, might not be. Death? We all die. Physical pain? Our species couldn't survive with out it.

Murder? Rape? Suicide?

Requires some belief in a higher purpose, or divine perfection, or some belief that we have the choice to use what's happened in a way to make the world better for other people.

Jesus? There's no way I would believe that Jesus died for the purpose of making us feel guilty.

First, we'll never know that answer.

It's an unknowable answer.

So that means you can choose what meaning you want to give it so that your own belief serves you, serves others, and serves the greater good.

On a practical level (not eternal level) I would believe that Jesus died so that every time we see a cross, see the word Jesus or Christ, or Christian, or even see a church or think about religion, we remind ourselves of what we feel are the most pure, best part of Jesus' teachings that we can use right in that moment.

Love. Love yourself.

You can't be judging yourself and loving yourself at the same time.

So no, definitely not. It wouldn't make sense that Jesus' death would contradict his core teaching. Find a meaning for it that aligns with the core teaching.

And remember, if something can have more than one meaning, it has no meaning, except that which you give it.

O yea, Islam considers him a Prophet, Christianity a God, and Judaism, well speak of the Devil why don't I.

Also, how Christianity scared of a Jesus that ain't the real Jesus, but would speak like Jesus is confusing. The old Anti-Christ fear an what not would cause the world much suffering. Then it never goes into any detail as how Jesus or Gods Sun would smite them.

Thanks for starting this thread.
I look around , watch the news , listen to friends and relatives plights...
I constantly wonder , where is God in all this ? Are we actually in hell because having to see and witness the
epidemic of evil , mass shootongs , parents killing their children in cold blood , parents torturing their children ,
rape , murder , molestation , politics , etc. , etc. ad nauseum.
I REFUSE to believe that any of it can't be stopped by a loving God , and at this point in my '
life I don't want a God that turns a blind eye , people still look for him , if he wants us to have more faith then
he actually does need to give a sign that is so undeniable that no one could look away and or second guess.
So if Jesus died for our sins then he did it in vain , I don't want to insult or offend anyone but the state of the world , to me , has become mind-blowing at this point.
I believe in a power of some kind but it just seems we've been left to extinguish ourselves and we're doing a damn fine job.

a reply to: Ove38

This isn't about sides as a lot of what christ said was good advice especially his parables which are still pertinent today. I was getting at the way religion plays the guilt card to keep people religious by saying that he died for us which is what I question, I wonder if he did. Many people separate religion from spirituality and I think christ taught spirituality as opposed to dogma which is the tool to keep people living in fear and needing the church and the workers who get their livings from religion.

a reply to: Jamie1

Thanks for sharing what you think. I go by the 'Be it harm none, do it and also, do as you would be done by. I also try to remember the good samaritan which is one of the best stories I know when thinking about spirituality and how to apply it to one's own life.

Romans 8

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

a reply to: ujustneverknow

We are going through a time when we are finding out about things that never got into the papers in the past and we also know about what happens all round the world today. The overall mass implosion of information, most of it not so good is heart rendering and it does seem, that the concept of a god who watches over us, cannot be realistic or indeed true because of the misery that exists around the world. The other troubling thing is that the world seems to be run by an ever decreasingly circle of power mungers. Just looking at the unnecessary wars the Uk has been involved in, even with our allies is unbelievable really and doesn't give one hope from the spiritual world.

Something from Eastern religion and paganism comes to mind and was also taught by christ and that was, to look within yourself for god and take that strength from within to deal with what comes your way. That's perhaps all we can do.

I've always pondered perhaps Jesus faked his own death?

Maybe things were starting to get a little to real? Perhaps his followers were getting a little to clingy? Maybe he just wanted to leave it all behind?

There are certain types of herbal concoctions that can render a person near-death for several days. . .

He died because he knew it was a lost cause. A failed experiment if you will. It's the 21st century and we still have war. I just try to find the good people in my life and treat them with the devotion and respect they deserve. That's what keeps me from going insane. I also removed myself from the bad situations and drama. That helps. I am not going to blame any god for the short-comings of the human condition. I played my part in it. Time to move on.

a reply to: xstealth

actually the bible is a symbolic astrological book written by man at least one hundred years after Jesus supposedly lived. Its been edited hundreds of times by tyrants and kings and rulers bent on keeping the masses spiritually ignorant in order to march the sleeping masses to war.

How come Jesus never wrote anything at all? All we get is stories from people that lived way after Jesus' death. Because its a symbolic story of the stars and consciousness that tells far more than some BS history.

Jeremiah 5:21 'Now hear this, O foolish and senseless people, Who have eyes but do not see; Who have ears but do not hear.

Those who have eyes but do not see the symbolism, those with ears but do not hear the symbolism...

a reply to: Shiloh7

Jesus was a local Jewish cult leader who preached a form of Judaism that the local rabbis didn't like. He caused unrest among the Jewish community and was deemed a criminal by the state because of the unrest and was then executed.

a reply to: Shiloh7

No, the 10 commandments were given to make one feel guilty.