Did Christ Die deliberately to make us feel Guilty?

I saw from another thread about christ dying for our sins to be forgiven - however, I have trouble with that whole concept for a number of reasons not to mention that the word 'sin' comes from old English, not from the desert languages and is an archery term, it didn't come into early christianity. It merely shows to me how manipulated our religions are, even from their inception. The impetus of religious dogma from the desert religions as ground into us deliberately when we are very young and accepting. They are about doing what we are told to do and what we are to think … by the church/mosque/ synagogue and that is the problem with the idea of why did christ really die.

It doesn't take an Einstein to realise that it is obviously convenient to have us all obeying the 10 commandments, (again not original to the desert religions and much older than their inception), however, these ensured that people living together would be civilised towards each other - which meant less attention from the Emperor and his civil servants in the courts, so a more orderly and peaceful running town etc,

So am I back with the idea that a sin is supposed to be something that God doesn't like and that's why christ died? well bearing in mind that one of today's sins e.g.. killing gives us a major problem; we execute/kill people who do things either the emporer or some high up doesn't like on the earth -(Some countries have stopped but capitol punishment has been the law for longer than it has been repealed and we also kill during war etc regardless of whether God likes it or not. This nullifies the idea of the credability of the 10 commandments, and our doing what the dessert relgions tell us God likes us to do - so back to why did Jesus, the son of God, have to put himself into the position of ensuring that he would be killed for us, especially 'for' us and what was he really doing, letting himself be killed knowing that God doesn't like killing?


The only reason I can come up with, is in order to make us feel guilt and through that guilt, oblige those of us that buy into religion to its guilt trip? Bearing in mind we already know that the original desert religion is fraught with problems, in that its shaky origins are taken from other civilisation's myths and based on a character from a pantheon of gods from which it elected only to adopt yahweh, whom was partnered to ashterah and both originally worhsipped in the temple. We have a religion that sidestepped its own history, makes their chosen god's pantheon disappear - along with his wife and then if we pick up the Egyptian concept of a single God. To confound the situation ever further we make a worshipful trinity of the single god, his murdered son and instead of a Mother, a holy ghost whose only contribution is to appear on rare occasions as a bird above people's heads. Should people feel guilty for Christ at all? Can we make sense of why he chose to die, as we know, but don't like to think about the fact he was going against his father's commandment himself? Should we feel guilty?

a reply to: Shiloh7

On the contrary.

a reply to: Shiloh7

He didn't die on purpose, they killed him. Because he was outspoken (wouldn't shut up).

Nothing so dangerous to the status quo as someone that knows they're right and keeps on coming.

a reply to: Shiloh7

Guilt is one of the most useless human emotions you could ever indulge in.

Guilt is being unhappy over what you perceive somebody else's expectations might or might not be.

Guilt is being unhappy about things that cannot be changed based on some belief that you are not good enough.

Want to make the world a better place? Be happy, not guilty. Guilt serves nobody.

a reply to: Shiloh7

I think, ultimately, the image of the Jewish "King of the Jews" suffering on the cross is a direct attack on Judaism. It's a reminder of the 6000 + men that were crucified outside the city wall of Jerusalem during the "Siege", and the final "nail" in the coffin of the Jewish Temple. The fact that the symbolism of a dying culture is the genesis of a "new", better religion that blames Judaism for the death of the Light of the World and the Savior of Mankind, is the Coup de grâce.

a reply to: Jamie1
I think guilt has it's place, just as any other mental and emotional process. Guilt is useful and needed short term. It is hanging on to guilt, allowing it to fester, and create repressive behavior within us that becomes a major stumbling block in our lives. imo.

a reply to: randyvs

Fabulous song I enjoyed and sang along. I did use to go to the local church for the 'Night Life years ago when we sang and loved it. Funny how Christians can sing fantastic music, sometimes far better than whats in the charts in truth.

But again its about worshipping god which is great for those who want to but for me, it doesn't link into christ or his chosen actions.

a reply to: Shiloh7

I'm just glad to have you sing along. As Idid.

Jesus is a symbol for the sun.

Every day the Sun moves one degree on the horizon until it reaches the winter solstice. On the winter solstice, Gods Sun, stops moving south. For two days it rises at exactly the same degree on the horizon. The ancient people knew that without movement there was no life. Therefor they said Gods Sun is dead (god's, because no one owns the sun). On the third day the sun rises one degree north of the winter solstice mark. The sun now moves north one degree everyday, therefor they said the Sun has risen back to life.

His death is nothing more than a symbol for the sun's movement in our sky. This is why we celebrate his birth on december 25th. This is also why we celebrate his resurrection on SUNday in april. The first day of spring is the mid point from winter to summer. Now the days are longer than the nights. Jesus resurrection symbolizes the sun making its journey through the long cold winter into the spring.

The biblical Jesus never existed, he is a personification of the Sun.

So no don't feel guilt. Why would you feel guilt even if it was a true story? You weren't alive in those times...

a reply to: intrptr

Yes you are right, he was definately outspoken but he was supposed to be because he was a Rabbi - had to be to have taught in the temple from which he did a disappearing act. He would have been a pain to the Pharisees but he stuck to their law, perhaps it was more that they probably felt he was eclipsing their status.

There were a number of so-called religious men hitting the headlines in that part of the world, Simon Magnus and Apollonius to name just two, both of which carried out miracles etc but none had the impact Christ did or claimed to have died for our sins.

a reply to: Jamie1

But do you think he died to make us feel guilty? I agree with you that guilt is a destructive force, but we can get past it by putting right what we are feeling guilty over - or someone prods us to feel guilty about something we have done and not realised its something uunkind or destructive..

I personally find the story of Jesus being a bit of an oddity in mythology in general, where it seems to have a lost canon to it, whether it was purposely banned or forgotten. Would you believe Jesus seemed like a divine spoiled brat, where even dark spirit that where believed to have been dragon even obeyed his cry? Or how Jesus supposedly killed a kid by accident and then brought him back to life for fear of being grounded by his step?

Anyways, it known fact that religions like to make people feel guilt or shame, whether it meant to be some form of manipulation like causing guilt in ones mind or meant to be a taboo, punishing or even make one confess, for those who are too attached to the religious state of mind. I'm pretty sure there is a African tribe that still use such mind sets, where someone would heat up a blade, but the blade won't hurt the innocent at all, only the guilty. However, the blade it self is actually cool to the touch fooling someone with a guilty conscious to think it hot.

Is the story of Jesus meant to target Jews, with their own mythology, to feel a form of guilt, or demonize them for that fact?

It the winners who write history.

a reply to: windword

I don't know I agree with about the Coup de grace, that attitude towards the jews was removed when the pope forgave them for killing christ. I also have never thought of it as a direct attack on judaism. In many ways there is such a huge difference between each of the three desert religions, their main theme is the one god - but thereafter they seem to go their own merry ways.

You do have a point about the King of the Jews though because a jewish king able to unite that group of people would have been a severe problem for the emperors.

The symbolism of the man nailed to the wood isn't spcific to the desert religions, (cross or as we now know it, a simple tree stump) but is so ancient and appears across the world even in Viking mythology far removed from canaan and is actually a pagan symbol taken because it was probably too well known to be remove so it had to be adapted to suit the new religion.

If you want to feel guilty, feel guilty, just remember you don't have to.

In many contemporary understandings, Jesus replaced the ten commandments with two new ones. Technically, one does not need to subscribe to any specific religion to follow them.

I can't really see why someone would go through so much just to guilt trip people. Though, I have known some women who came close!

originally posted by: Shiloh7

Though shall not kill, the word should actually have been translated to though shall not murder. Killing is not a sin, war, criminal executions, aren't breaking the commandment. Murder, is a sin.

As far as 'sin' not coming from old English, it doesn't matter. It's a concept, a sin is the actions of doing things against God's will, it's always been understood that way since the first sin.

Jesus died not so we could feel guilty, he died to free us from guilt.

We live free through him now. Which we can make sense of how he died, it was prophesied in Psalms 22, and the Word, which is God (John 1:1) was fulfilled.

originally posted by: booyakasha
Jesus is a symbol for the sun.

I've never heard the sun preach, raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, be crucified to rise again 3 days later.

You can believe that bull hockey all you want, but the fact is he in flesh lived. The Bible is a history book, his story.

Him calling himself Lucifer another weird one, it not Satan(Adversary) or the Enemy, or loving Satan.

Maybe right before Jesus was crucified he was looking up at the sky
and praying "Hey, pops I can really use of those divine miracles right about now".

a reply to: Specimen


As you so rightly say, its the winners who write history and from their history we get christianity and its form made up by Eusabius and others then put into church dogma by the council of nicea.

But fortunately, today we have the scrolls from Nag Hammadi, which the catholic church didn't get their paws on to censor before their contents were published and all Christians really should read them. We now know a lot more about what he actually taught as well as some strange gospels which are hard to understand. The early church went from abbey to abbey destroying anything from the gnostics which means that especially christianity , despite its wonderful teachings and in truth some very good advice for living, does help a lot of people.

The gnostics teaching gives Christ as telling us that he would call a man brother and regard him as anequal, were he to follow gnostic teachings which makes him a man with god within him. This is opposed to the idea of christ being the son of god and our being guilty for his death which he had to do, so church dogma tells us our sins would be forgiven. Actually I would wonder what happened to eusabius on his death and whether he is languishing in the hell he used to frighten generations with?

Where the fault line is exposed is that Christ deliberately followed a path, that of the jewish messiah, prophesied throughout the old testament in the bible, which he knew went against his father's commandment were he to be crucified. He knew the stakes he was playing for so should we feel guilty for something he decided upon, which is the point religion uses to try to make us feel guilty over. "You're all Sinners" the reverent Paisley use to throw out at his audience, but are we for the reason the dogma states?