Republican Governor learns his tax cuts for the rich didn't work

a reply to: Answer

Just because I didn't feel like commenting, doesn't mean I haven't been reading.

Anyways, my time is up so i'll let you guys get back at it.

a reply to: CrawlingChaos

Not to butt in...but your confusion in this post is premised on fully buying the Frank Lutz creation of "Job Creators"?

Otherwise ..."the Wealthy" does not equal "Job Creators"...

Consumer Demand creates jobs...aka Consumer Class/Middle Class..Demand for a product increases and companies expand to meet demand, if they don't have full finances to do so, banks lend.

But giving the wealthy more money does not create jobs.

Trickle down economics as a mechanism for growth is like trying to fuel your car by spraying gas on the engine.

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: CrawlingChaos

Not to butt in...but your confusion in this post is premised on fully buying the Frank Lutz creation of "Job Creators"?

Otherwise ..."the Wealthy" does not equal "Job Creators"...

Consumer Demand creates jobs...aka Consumer Class/Middle Class..Demand for a product increases and companies expand to meet demand, if they don't have full finances to do so, banks lend.

But giving the wealthy more money does not create jobs.

Trickle down economics as a mechanism for growth is like trying to fuel your car by spraying gas on the engine.

You made my point more clearly than I was willing to.

a reply to: Answer

I am well aware of the institution of taxes. Income tax was devised to pay for a certain war....

The current Progressive Tax system was created to hold in check the railroad and robber barons. It didn't work.

And are you actually suggesting that taxes got the US out of the Great Depression??

a reply to: Indigo5

Consumer Demand creates jobs

No, capital, creates jobs. Consumer demand creates a job-market...

Demand for a product increases and companies expand to meet demand, if they don't have full finances to do so, banks lend.

And where does this capital for lending & investment come from ?

But giving the wealthy more money does not create jobs.

Who is "giving" money to the wealthy ? If you mean using your money to make money, that's known as "earning" not "giving" money.

Trickle down economics as a mechanism for growth is like trying to fuel your car by spraying gas on the engine.

So, by your statement, Answer's proposal of decreasing taxes on capital to fuel economic growth won't work... But taxing the heck out of it, will...

Don't agree with that. /shrug

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: Answer

I am well aware of the institution of taxes. Income tax was devised to pay for a certain war....

The current Progressive Tax system was created to hold in check the railroad and robber barons. It didn't work.

And are you actually suggesting that taxes got the US out of the Great Depression??

Of course I'm not saying it's the only reason, or even one of the major reasons, but did it contribute? It would be hard to deny that it did.

Am I saying the lowering of tax rates caused the Great Depression? It was a contributing factor to a much larger picture.

History tells us that when tax rates on the wealthy are high and wealth inequality is low, the nation sees economic growth and prosperity. When the tax rates on the wealthy are low and wealth inequality is high, the nation goes through an economic downturn. Why is that?

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
a reply to: Indigo5

Consumer Demand creates jobs

No, capital, creates jobs. Consumer demand creates a job-market...

Demand for a product increases and companies expand to meet demand, if they don't have full finances to do so, banks lend.

And where does this capital for lending & investment come from ?

But giving the wealthy more money does not create jobs.

Who is "giving" money to the wealthy ? If you mean using your money to make money, that's known as "earning" not "giving" money.

Trickle down economics as a mechanism for growth is like trying to fuel your car by spraying gas on the engine.

So, by your statement, Answer's proposal of decreasing taxes on capital to fuel economic growth won't work... But taxing the heck out of it, will...

Don't agree with that. /shrug

Lowering the tax burden on the upper-middle class and increasing it on the wealthy who do not directly contribute to job growth won't work in your opinion... so what will?

The current system is obviously broken so what's the solution?

a reply to: Answer

You have removed all other aspects of those time periods and basically placed the whole taxing of the rich in a vacuum, and used the results as your basis.

Very very simple. Taxing someone higher, then others, regardless of the reason is wrong. The ends don't justify the means.

It is theft from everyone. Now, you suggest a higher amount of theft from some, because (insert reason).

So, morals are right out the door, as you suggest a few carrying more weight then others, because they have more.

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: Answer

You have removed all other aspects of those time periods and basically placed the whole taxing of the rich in a vacuum, and used the results as your basis.

Very very simple. Taxing someone higher, then others, regardless of the reason is wrong. The ends don't justify the means.

It is theft from everyone. Now, you suggest a higher amount of theft from some, because (insert reason).

So, morals are right out the door, as you suggest a few carrying more weight then others, because they have more.

I'm not putting taxes in a vacuum. I already said there was much more to the overall picture but if that helps you ignore what I'm saying, go ahead.

It's easy to call it morally wrong when you can't provide a better solution. I have no fundamental dog in this fight. I'm simply looking at the situation we're in now and considering a way to repair it. You can say "let's shrink the government and do away with taxes" but, even though I agree with you, that's not a realistic solution. My solution is probably not realistic either in the current environment even though it has actually been done before.

Frankly, we're all wasting our time anyway because at the end of the day, the nation will continue circling the drain and nothing we do or say matters.

a reply to: Answer

Why is this not a realistic solution??

To go back to what it was constructed as is very much realistic.


How is taking more money from some more realistic?

And theft, regardless if there isn't an immediate different path, is still immoral.

Taxes, are not there to be an economic or social equalizer.

Taxes are to fund a basic Govt.

And you did put it in a vacuum. You used it as an example.

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
a reply to: Indigo5

Consumer Demand creates jobs

No, capital, creates jobs. Consumer demand creates a job-market...

(A) You seem confused...Job Creation and Job market by your definitions differ how?

(B) An increase Aggregate Demand (aka Consumer Demand) increases GDP and short term price level (until supply catches up through expansion) which results in falling unemployment.

This isn't theory, ideology or politics. It is Basic Economics 101 derived from hundreds of economies over hundreds of years.

You can not arbitrarily increase supply where demand does not exist and expect demand to appear without cause.

Again...If you research where the stimulus funds to banks ended up under the trickle-down theory, banks did not loan to businesses to spur job growth. They had no incentive to, just the opposite. They invested where a return was greatest during a financial crisis. Food and Energy options and futures...everyone needs heat and food and pay those bills even when they have been laid-off. thus heat and energy costs rose on everyone during the economic crisis, ironically via their own tax dollars.

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
a reply to: Indigo5

And where does this capital for lending & investment come from ?

Through banks and loans (Depositor funds) that first and above all else see a strong potential for a solid and secure return..aka Increasing Demand.

The average depositor to banks is the workhorse of expansion to meet demand in the form of small and large business loans.

The average wealthy investors invest internationally for quick and large returns...futures, options, currency markets..in and out in stock speculation, hedge funds etc. You don't call up the Koch brothers for a business loan.

And wealthy investors under current tax policy are actually incentivized to make money through those non-job producing vehicles (unearned income) vs. putting their money to work in the economy.

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
a reply to: Indigo5

And where does this capital for lending & investment come from ?

Through banks and loans (Depositor funds) that first and above all else see a strong potential for a solid and secure return..aka Increasing Demand.

The average depositor to banks is the workhorse of expansion to meet demand in the form of small and large business loans.

The average wealthy investors invest internationally for quick and large returns...futures, options, currency markets..in and out in stock speculation, hedge funds etc. You don't call up the Koch brothers for a business loan.

And wealthy investors under current tax policy are actually incentivized to make money through those non-job producing vehicles (unearned income) vs. putting their money to work in the economy.

Get out of here with your reality. We're talking about the textbook/Fox News version of how the system is supposed to work.

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
So, by your statement, Answer's proposal of decreasing taxes on capital to fuel economic growth won't work... But taxing the heck out of it, will...

Don't agree with that. /shrug

Perhaps what happens in the real world holds the answer as to what happens? See, some time ago, there were some tax cuts that expired. There was an outcry - that because taxes would go up due to the cuts expiring, economic growth would decline. Jobs would diminish, etc. You might remember this, as it was only a few years ago. So, what happened?

Why the Republican Congress’s First Act Was to Declare War on Math

The Congressional Budget Office predicted that the expiration of these tax cuts would have only minor, short-term effects on the economy. Conservatives made far more dire assessments. A study commissioned by pro-business organizations predicted that ending the Bush tax cuts for the rich would cost hundreds of thousands of jobs and reduce economic productivity. “This report shows the president's small business tax hike threatens hundreds of thousands of jobs, and will lead to even less economic growth, less investment and lower wages for American workers,” warned John Boehner. “These tax increases will have painful impacts on the economy and job creation,” insisted the Heritage Foundation. These predictions were the perfectly predictable expression of the conservative worldview, which deems tax rates on “job creators” to be the overriding factor in the success or failure of the economy.

Almost nothing that has happened in the two years since has made that conservative argument look good. In February 2013 — just after the Bush tax cuts on the highest earners expired — the Congressional Budget Office published a forecast for the budget and the economy over the next several years. The CBO forecast that the unemployment rate would fall to 7.6 percent by the end of 2014. If the conservative analysis was correct, and higher tax rates on job creators were depressing job growth, we might expect the unemployment rate today to be higher than the CBO forecast. Instead it is much lower. Unemployment fell below 6 percent by the third quarter of last year. Indeed, the economy appears to be accelerating into a phase of more rapid growth just at the time conservatives predicted that higher taxes would have the opposite effect. This development has not given Republicans even the slightest pause.

I could go on about what a travesty is described in this article, but it has only some relevance to this topic. Everyone ought to give it a read.