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Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

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posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 09:47 PM
He died as well to prove and illustrate physical immortality in a human body

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:04 PM
a reply to: daaskapital

So what is the correct context then?

I'm pretty sure Win knows where I was coming from daas.

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:08 PM
a reply to: randyvs

Okay, fair enough. Haha.

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:17 PM
a reply to: windword


You got it right... Forgive and you will be forgiven... Have mercy and you will be shown mercy...

But if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven... and if you show no mercy, you will receive none..

Been saying this for years... Jesus had it right as he always does...

but Paul's version is much easier, so Christians prefer to believe their sins are already forgiven, which makes everything Jesus taught pointless...

They return to the ways of the time before Jesus came, where people thought blood can forgive sins...

But Blood didn't forgive for sins back then, and it doesn't now...

edit on 3-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:20 PM
If this thread is anything to go by, it is clear that Christianity and its bible are full of contradictions and are in need of refinement. People can't even agree on what the core tenants are, let alone the actual teachings and intricacies in biblical stories...

It is pretty shaky ground to base one's beliefs on, in my opinion...

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:20 PM
i think it's a time related puzzle.
if it is god's will that none should perish but have everlasting life, then i say, "may god's will be done"
in the context of time and space, everyone is already forgiven. we don't have all the info, so we can't be
held accountable for what we know little to nothing about, or for that matter, when/where we have been taught it incorrectly. Or are biologically geared for. that is no one's fault other than the apparent lack of full information.

think what it's saying about the entire human race -- we are indebted for sins we didn't originate (the fall narrative), based purely on the fact that we are genetically related to the originals. this genetic relation has caused us to fall out of good standing for that fact alone and not just out of good standing, but under condemnation so egregious, we've been sentenced to short (comparative) life spans of pain and suffering in servitude to task masters who are themselves nearly as clueless as the rest of us. its as if we are stuck in the fall narrative because the prosecuting attorney didn't want to let the defense attorney into the courtroom until he had met his demands for a proper defense. of course, the demands were outrageous. jesus fixed that by paying the penalty the prosecuting attorney demanded, which was what he had been demanding from every human being, before that.

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:29 PM
Ultimately it is all gods fault. Of course if your God you can deny responsibility, but if your the creator then your pretty much responsible for the outcome. I refuse to believe in a God that would create sentient beings to send them to hell or make them suffer. If there is a God he ain't found in the books ancient men wrote.

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:46 PM
a reply to: Akragon

Thanks AK! I knew you'd stop by and add your $.02!

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 10:49 PM
a reply to: windword

You know it... that is the truth of forgiveness!

it does not come from blood...

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 11:32 PM

originally posted by: undo
i think it's a time related puzzle.
if it is god's will that none should perish but have everlasting life, then i say, "may god's will be done"
in the context of time and space, everyone is already forgiven. we don't have all the info, so we can't be
held accountable for what we know little to nothing about, or for that matter, when/where we have been taught it incorrectly. Or are biologically geared for. that is no one's fault other than the apparent lack of full information.

If you perished; you as a god particle would also cause God to have a negative reaction (LUPUS) or a bad cold virus. We are eternal soul/spirits (just like god intended). We have NO information and it is mankind that decides the value of ones souls worthlessness. You are right, we in ignorance cannot be held accountable by God for ITS lack of instruction. No foul by the human, just lacking by its creator a proper education (we are to be held as innocents/not our fault).

posted on Jan, 3 2015 @ 11:40 PM

originally posted by: balanc3
He died as well to prove and illustrate physical immortality in a human body

Not possible (physical immortality), the body/physical is a complicated meat suit and without the animation of The spirit (eternal) will not function. Its use/purpose is as a vessel for containment only; for that souls incarnation time allotted (spirit resides in the brain, soul in the heart) a miracle machine. To Windword: it makes no sense that Jesus would absolve all sins; committed past, present or in future time (that gives the human carte blanche to possibly take the advantage and behave badly).
edit on 4-1-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 01:58 AM

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: ausername
a reply to: windword

What if it's really simple?

What if you are born into this life, suffer the human condition, to be tempted with sins, exposed to evil and evil influences and all that life can be, good and bad. All strictly to determine your place in the afterlife?

Well, as I recently posted in another thread, I believe in reincarnation. I see it/life on Earth kinda like an enrollment in a cosmic college. We're working to attain certain, pre-selected, knowledge, to get a degree to move forward in our chosen paths.

I had entertained these thoughts as plausible as well, doing what we do here on Earth, which is RE-search all of the religions, myths, and stories brought forth here.

But the resounding voice in my head, the one which I denied for years, kept telling me that ALL of it is taught, and therefore tainted, and whats more, all of it has an agenda.

Looking beyond every teaching around, and yet using many of the tools and hints from them, I soon come to see that this is something far more complex than ANYTHING wrote anywhere I have yet found.

It is indeed troubling that we have been programmed largely to only take from what is around us, and taught to us and beat into at any and all stages, and use those virtual sandboxes to make our Pre-rendered decisions.

But we have found that it is INDEED possible to see a much larger diagram of what is going on in this Universe, and that the AVATARS that so wholly Lord that what you say about multiple lives is true, I found that even they live in an ETERNAL HAZE , not actually knowing anything, not searching not FINDING, but only and totally blindly lost to the whims of that which deceived them.

Confronting such beings was at first scary, as is rising ones frequency so high that the "normal world" completely changes and the laws regarding such vanish.

Took a few years off from that, but got back to it soon enough, and found much to our dismay, that even the highest advanced souls in any school are systematically , brutally , and totally holding back the so-called students, all in a vain desire to show that God is mysterious, and MOST OF ALL, LOVE.

Imagine the horrors they would face, if indeed even one human pulled the delusion from their eyes as far as they have hidden themselves, all content to live inside the myriad of dimensions and plays they believe are part of the "journey".

Imagine what will happen in all actuality, if GOD was to actually be rendered in even 1% of the magnificence of what they claim they saw, what they claim others cannot see on Earth, and what we have to be taught and to be here for.

An interesting verse I did read in the Bible, as I have extreme evangelical parents.

Spiritual Wickedness in the HIGHEST of PLACES....... means just that, ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING in the ENTIRETY OF CREATION, has fell to a different motive.

And we are not here, in any way shape or form to know that, to move to fix that, or to help anyone.

Someone else controls the entire show here, and in the next 27 dimensions so to speak at least, not a one thing taught here, is fully truthful, but a lot of stuff comes close,


posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 02:27 AM

originally posted by: windword
... Jesus had to die in order for you to be forgiven ...

Didn't JC renege on that deal via resurrection ?

edit on 4-1-2015 by Takifugu because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 03:12 AM

originally posted by: windword
According to one of the most basic of the teachings of Jesus, our sins are forgiven upon the "act" of forgiving the sins we perceive people are committing against us.

No He's not saying they're forgiven upon that act. It means that it makes it possible for them to be forgiven, it's not the same thing.

More contradictory teachings from the doctrine of these Christians goes on to claim that if your sins are not forgiven, you will be sorted like wheat from chaff, and your worthless essence will be burned away. Some insist that even that's not the end, and that God will award your soul to Satan to torture for eternity. All this because God, supposedly, can't be in the presence of your "sin" of non-belief.

It's not contradictory, because unforgiveness is a sin. Also, we don't believe Satan will torture people for eternity. The Bible says he will be bound. However, people will be tormented by the fires of hell and the wrath of God.

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;" (Revelation 20:1-2 NKJV)

Jesus teaches us something different in his Sermon on the Mount:

And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Who could be poorer in spirit than those who have no faith and do not believe?

Being poor in spirit doesn't mean having no faith. That would be contradictory to the rest of Jesus teachings, sayings and the rest of the NT.

Jesus doesn't speak well of disbelief in the Bible:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV)

"But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe." (John 6:36 NKJV)

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." (John 12:39-40 NKJV)

However John 12:39-40 is about the people back then who saw Jesus do many signs before them. So just because someone doesn't believe in Jesus TODAY, it doesn't mean it's because of what's said above.

The "True" message of salvation that Jesus' teachings impart is that our "sin" is forgiven by "God" ONLY when others' sin is forgiven by us. It's really simple.

Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

He's not saying all our other sin, no matter what sins we have, are automatically forgiven the moment we forgive the sin(s) of someone else against us.
But he's saying we can't be forgiven if we don't forgive others. It hinders us from being forgiven of other sins then. However, one would still have to confess and repent of other sins to God.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Look if you want to mishmash the two stories together and find some continuity that is fine but you should be sure that you are not following either gospel you are authoring your own gospel.

If a story has two aspects, those aspects are still of the same story, so it's not making a new gospel.

People who witness a crime can say different things, but doesn't mean what they say is false simply because of that.
edit on 4-1-2015 by Jonathan1995 because: Adding another reply

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Interesting that in Hebrew the phrase is used for many people and not just one soul.

Not Messiah in the same sense, not equal with Jesus.

a reply to: snypwsd

Didn't god say that every green plant was put here for man? Also why are we not living to be hundreds of years old like Adam and his children? Why is it that our average life expectency is around 80 years?"

His answer was "really? Hundreds of years old?" I said yes.

Doesn't mean that smoking marijuana to be high is the purpose of the herb. It has other purposes, and can be healthy without making us high and harming us. So God creating plants for us doesn't justify smoking to get high.

Now, regarding Adam. Because the first humans after Adam lived closer to the fall, they could live longer than us. I don't have an explanation from the Bible. But just because we don't live as long as Adam, doesn't mean the story about Adam and Eve is false.

a reply to: BlueJacket

Same basic premise the lawyer asks how to get to heaven, and the Samite who wasnt a believer but solely helped his injured neighbor(goes to heaven)

Nowhere does it say that the Samite goes to heaven because of that. The story was told in order to illustrate what loving our neighbor means. However, that's not the greatest commandment, but it's second.

This is the greatest:

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment." (Mark 12:29-30 NKJV)

a reply to: zazzafrazz

The how does 'Jesus dying on the cross actually save sins' premise i ask of every devout xian I know. This includes my mom, my dear friend who is a priest, friends etc and I never ask it to get into an Argument but to see if anyone can actually answer the question without the reasonings of faith to support their answer. I am yet to get a reasonable explanation.

You are guilty of crimes, all evidence is laid out, you stand before a (righteous, just) judge in a court, and you are found guilty. Pointing to all your good works wont help, it still wont change the fact that you're guilty of crimes and that justice is demanded.
But imagine that someone steps in and takes your place and pays the price for your freedom.

Jesus lived a completely sinless life, therefore he could die on the cross as the spotless lamb of God, sacrificed for our sins.
Jesus bore the wrath of God. The Bible says "without shedding of blood there is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22 NKJV). That's why Jesus had to shed his blood for us.

He rose again on the third day. Therefore we can be justified before God, by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ and his work on the cross, burial and resurrection and repenting from our sins.
edit on 4-1-2015 by Jonathan1995 because: Adding more replies

edit on 4-1-2015 by Jonathan1995 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 03:46 AM

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: cody599

I read it.

The symbolism of the cross has to do with celestial solar worship, astrotheology. The death of the sun, actually, is allegory for one event in the life of the "Journey of the Fool", God's son roaming and claiming his/her inheritance, The Kingdom of God, Heaven.

That was a lot to read

My thanks for taking the time, it certainly made me sit back and think.


posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 04:30 AM
a reply to: windword

But, if you do forgive, you can expect forgiveness, right?
I don't think it is a matter of a direct quid pro quo.
Really, the main point is to not sin.
Having a bunch of sinning going on is a bad thing, regardless of if that sin has a "forgiveness" attached to it or not.
Of course lack of any forgiveness leads to an escalation as people carry out their own versions of vengeance over reprieved wrongs.

edit on 4-1-2015 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 06:14 AM
a reply to: windword

TPTB have changed the LORD's prayer. Look into an older version of the Bible and you shall see with your own eye's that the Lord's prayer actually stated, "Forgive us our debt's as we forgive our debtor's" this is what is being veiled from the masses. It has everything to do with what is going on in the world today (Massive multi-national debts). There has been a calculated attack against the bible and it has spanned over a very long time. I guess borrowing money with interest is wrong and lending money at interest is wrong. The bible is your shield, and it has it's place in the law that governs us all. People have forgotten the value of the bible, they think it has no real bearing in life when it is actually is still the most important (for health, for legal, for moral..)

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:48 AM
a reply to: windword

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Just checked the DR, NW, ASV, Darby, EMTV, ESV, Geneva, GW, KJV, LTV, YLT bibles And all eleven do not agree with what you put out as scripture. I don't know where you got that rendition of Matthew 6:14 nor how you came to your conclusion but it is not accepted by a majority of Christianity.

God would never ask you to do something that he would not do. That is why there is hell.

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:54 AM
a reply to: Seede

They included 6:15 as well.

posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:58 AM
a reply to: Seede


Hell is the ungenerous creation of religion to strike fear and subservience into the gullible

There is no Hell ... nor judgement from our Creator ... only realisation and learning ... each knows right from wrong in the end

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