Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

a reply to: Observationalist

It doesn't matter who he's speaking to because he says what he says.

"Each of us", meaning he and other believers will be judged by their actions while in the body, not beliefs or thoughts.

It's easy to put blinders on, it isn't as easy to question long held beliefs. It's there clear as day, believers just choose to ignore it.

1 Corinthians 13
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Yet another example from Paul that loving others is more important than faith. What happens when you love someone? You treat them as you would want to be treated, you do good works toward them. If you do not have love (good works) but have faith to move mountains, your faith amounts to nothing because you didn't love others and treat them as yourself.

1 Corinthians 13
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love is greater than faith. If you do not treat others well, your faith will not save you. Good works (love) are greater than faith.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Very good post...

a reply to: Akragon

Thanks, the evidence against faith-based salvation it's everywhere in the bible, it's just a matter of sorting through all the other BS that comes with it.

This isn't an endorsement for Paul, it's just an example of how all over the place Paul's teachings are. Paul gets some things right but his other teachings muddy the water, I think that was his purpose from the beginning.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Akragon

Thanks, the evidence against faith-based salvation it's everywhere in the bible, it's just a matter of sorting through all the other BS that comes with it.
This isn't an endorsement for Paul, it's just an example of how all over the place Paul's teachings are. Paul gets some things right but his other teachings muddy the water, I think that was his purpose from the beginning.

It "the books within" without inclusion of the Nag Hammadi texts are supposed to ring a truth? Abject hit a note here and there. Just metaphorical enough to persuade one to think this could be the truth? The subjective left the building with Plato and Socrates (no one could read greek/latin). Faith based salvation. What does that even mean as a 20th century human living NOW; 2000 years later does not resonate. Paul invented Christianity. Jesus was an Essene NOT A CHRISTIAN; Jesus was a Gnostic and Paul got the Message All WRONG. He went to the occident (Greece) not the Orient as he was supposed to (who gets east and west direction muddled). Jesus studied there *India* WHO is in charge here? Paul? (thank you for your misinterpretation of EVERYTHING that turned out badly for some native Americans in the form of the total destruction of their civilizations; MAYA for starters).

He stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” [ESV] John 8:7
-- And all the bornagain and still dripping Christians who were now without sin, picked up stones and hurled them at the woman. Upon realising they were now sinners again, they took Jesus and had him sacrificed to cleanse them of their sins again.

Isn't that just about how the Christian's way of thinking works?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
He stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” [ESV] John 8:7
-- And all the bornagain and still dripping Christians who were now without sin, picked up stones and hurled them at the woman. Upon realising they were now sinners again, they took Jesus and had him sacrificed to cleanse them of their sins again.
Isn't that just about how the Christian's way of thinking works?

How would you know; you might be responding to an archetypal overlay; an INSERT idea (by OTHERS actually in charge) that was intended to change the course of history in that physical area to JUMP START CHANGE a stagnant/dangerous path of destruction paradigm (that which SEEMS to have happened but not really) and buying into it as REALITY. Problem; Paul continued to exacerbate a patriarchy as the ruler; was supposed to be something else. The crucifixion may have been the first idea of a celluloid overlay ever; rewind and press replay.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It doesn't matter who he's speaking to because he says what he says.

Faith in Christ Jesus, Salvation is a prerequisite to be included in the audience that Paul is talking to.

"Each of us", meaning he and other believers will be judged by their actions while in the body, not beliefs or thoughts.

Do you include yourself as a believer, a follower of Christ?

ETA: could not get quote to work so I deleted my comment.

a reply to: Observationalist

Faith in Christ Jesus, Salvation is a prerequisite to be included in the audience that Paul is talking to.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Really? So you think Paul is saying that non believers won't have to appear before "The Judgment seat of Christ"? Only Christians get judged for their works?

Matthew 7:1
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.…

Jesus or Paul?

Hilarious. Take notice of who casts the first stone. It's the virgin-mother....

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

1 Corinthians 13
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


Yet another example from Paul that loving others is more important than faith. What happens when you love someone? You treat them as you would want to be treated, you do good works toward them. If you do not have love (good works) but have faith to move mountains, your faith amounts to nothing because you didn't love others and treat them as yourself.

1 Corinthians 13
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


Love is greater than faith. If you do not treat others well, your faith will not save you. Good works (love) are greater than faith.

Your attempt at Deconstruction here is fruitless.
Deconstructionism

Deconstructionism (or sometimes just Deconstruction) is a theory in Epistemology and Philosophy of Language initiated by Jacques Derrida in the 1960s. It is a theory of literary criticism that questions traditional assumptions about certainty, identity, and truth; asserts that words can only refer to other words; and attempts to demonstrate how statements about any text subvert their own meanings.

Deconstructionism - is it a valid way to interpret the Bible?

The deconstructionist thinks that he can discover a personal or social motivation behind what Scripture says and therefore can determine what is “really being said.” The result is a subjective interpretation of the passage in question. Instead of accepting what the Bible actually says, the deconstructionist is arrogant enough to think he can determine the motive behind what was written and come up with the “real” or “hidden” meaning of the text. However, if one were to take deconstructionism to its logical conclusion, then the findings of the deconstructionist would themselves have to be deconstructed to determine what the deconstructionist “really” said. The endless circular reasoning is self-defeating. When one thinks about how fundamentally flawed this type of thinking is, one is reminded of 1 Corinthians 3:19, “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, ‘He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness.’”

I would lay out the context for you but I know you would not listen. For those who want to know what Paul is talking about, who Paul is talking to. Simply read the first chapter of 1 Corinthians.

Edit: why won't the bible verses show up from Enlightens post that I quoted.

Edit: Got it removed quotes from verses.

a reply to: Observationalist

Yet faith cannot be alive without works, so works are a prerequisite to faith.

Yes , I'm a follower of Christ and I do have faith in God because I treat others as I would want to be treated: with respect and love.

a reply to: Observationalist

Jesus didn't give up because people didn't listen to him. If not for me then explain it for others who may be reading this thread. What did Paul mean by saying love is greater than faith?

If love is the greatest as Jesus and Paul say then faith alone is not enough.

If a Christian who has faith that Jesus died for their sins does not help those who are in need, is their faith without works enough to save them?

Paul says that faith alone apart from the law is enough. What does the law hang on? Loving God and others as yourself. So love is what the law hangs on and IS the law.

If we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of love, then why does Paul say faith is nothing without love?

The contradiction is as clear as day, you're doing some impressive mental gymnastics to ignore it. Your heart is hard, you are not open to love, only faith.

I'm not deconstructing what Paul said, there is no hidden meaning.

1 Corinthians 13
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Faith without love is nothing. He means exactly what he says.

1 Corinthians 13
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love is greater than faith. He means exactly what he says.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Observationalist

Faith in Christ Jesus, Salvation is a prerequisite to be included in the audience that Paul is talking to.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Really? So you think Paul is saying that non believers won't have to appear before "The Judgment seat of Christ"? Only Christians get judged for their works?

Win, there is a Distinction.
Judgment Seat or Bema Seat is for Believers,
Great White Thrown Judgment for Non Believers.

Everyone gets hung up on the word Judgment, the term in Greek is Bema. It is in short, a finish line of sort. Those Christians, true believers in Christ who have finished the race of the earthly kingdom will now enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, and our faithfulness will be rewarded by Jesus, A closing ceremony so to speak.

a reply to: Observationalist

Well, personally, I believe that "The Judgement Seat of Christ" exists in the minds of all of us, and we are own worst judges.

However:

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

a reply to: windword

The one who sent Jesus was love (God), to hear his word is to put them into action, not to just say you believe them.

Those who hear (do) his word and believe the one who sent him (God/love) then that person will not enter judgment because they have proven their faith through their good works and have passed the test already... because they put good works into practice and didn't just accept what he said without doing it.

Paul says that saying and believing Jesus is Lord IS enough apart from works of love.

Jesus says that saying and believing he is Lord is NOT enough apart from the works of love.

Paul and Jesus are diametrically opposed to one another on this issue. Why can't Christians see it? Oh yeah, they're afraid of going to hell so they hang onto their churches every teaching, whether they agree with Jesus or not.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Paul is of the idea form 'read it believe it'. Enlightenment does not come by way of scripture (word); and 'prayer' is a form of begging for positive outcomes (not pure as are subjective/pointed and flawed seeking a result that benefits you).

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Paul says that saying and believing Jesus is Lord IS enough apart from works of love.

Can you give an example of where Paul says that?
It doesn't ring a bell with me as to what verse you may be referring to.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 4
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Observationalist

Yet faith cannot be alive without works, so works are a prerequisite to faith.

Yes , I'm a follower of Christ and I do have faith in God because I treat others as I would want to be treated: with respect and love.

Noble and truly said 3NL1GHT3N3D1; with strength of heart. The key for all is what faith in 'nothing' actually means. Its called Fated in the unknown TRUST FACTOR; an impossible belief (unproven) that something greater than ourselves designed this world (as its own playground) to experience ITSELF.