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Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

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posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

. . . and they attempted to counter Jesus words with Paul . . .
Obviously they were misinterpreting Paul since he doesn't contradict Jesus.

What people like that do is insert definitions for the terms that Paul used, but definitions that did not exist when Paul was writing.



I think you're gonna have to look a little harder brother...

Paul even contradicts himself... Hes all over the place on Jesus' teaching

Did he not say "all have sinned" yet in Philippians claimed to be blameless because of his life as a Pharisee?

He "conformed to he strictest sect of their religion...

But we know what Jesus thought of the Pharisees... Don't we...





posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 07:40 PM
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a reply to: zazzafrazz


The how does 'Jesus dying on the cross actually save sins' premise i ask of every devout xian I know. This includes my mom, my dear friend who is a priest, friends etc and I never ask it to get into an Argument but to see if anyone can actually answer the question without the reasonings of faith to support their answer. I am yet to get a reasonable explanation.

Maybe the reason you did not get the correct answer is because most do not understand the correct answer. The purpose of Christ Jesus appearing to this creation was not to simply forgive your sins but the main reason was to introduce His creation to a new celestial eternal existence. Prior to creating a kingdom in heaven this creation had its existence in the nether world which was located in Sheol. As Jesus walked this earth this creation was not offered the kingdom of God (heaven).

The spirits imprisoned in Sheol were the first of this creation to experience resurrection to the celestial realm. This came about as the new covenant was sealed by blood. All blood covenants were required by terrestrial life because the life is in the blood. The Sinai covenant of Moses was sealed with animal blood because it was a terrestrial covenant. Jesus' blood sealed His new covenant because it was a celestial covenant. The new covenant which Jesus gave was the kingdom of heaven which is where the water and tree of life are located. The spirit that is forgiven its sins is allowed into the New Jerusalem to eat and drink the food and water of eternal life.

This became convoluted by religion as to mean that Jesus died to forgive your sins. In a way that is correct because Jesus did die to give you eternal celestial life but not to simply forgive you. This creation had forgiveness before Jesus and after Jesus. Naturally one must have forgiveness in order to be allowed into New Jerusalem (kingdom of God) so it is easily misunderstood to look at this in a limited way. The Christ came among us to offer celestial eternal life which had not been offered before His appearance. He had to appear because He had to shed His blood to seal the celestial covenant. Prior to Christ Jesus appearing to us, this entire universe was created only for a limited time. It is targeted for destruction eventually and if Christ did not offer an escape from Sheol then the entire creation would also perish. As you may now realize, it was the act of love for His creation that He gave His blood and life.



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 07:43 PM
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a reply to: Seede

I understood perfectly what you were saying, but I'm afraid you don't answer my question , but again I thank you for your time.



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 08:20 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

But we know what Jesus thought of the Pharisees... Don't we...
That was his point, that going by the letter to get righteousness doesn't work.



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 07:10 AM
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A brief tangent.

This thread makes me think of this song:



*chuckle*



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 09:56 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

Jesus died to "negate" the barrier that sin provides. Jesus said be ye Holy (or perfected) even as I am Holy. Jesus said that, not Paul. What Paul explains is HOW to manage that...

It is very possible..you just have to be willing to meet Jesus half way.
edit on 6-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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Another example of Jesus forgiving sins BEFORE he, supposedly, died to forgive sins:


Mark 2:3
Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.”



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 10:15 AM
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The bitter truth for all Christians: Jesus told the unpleasant truth, and he was killed for it. Period. His death didn't save you, neither did it erase sins or bring salvation, and your tireless chanting it did and it does, well, you couldn't be more mistaken. All you Christians have been lured into a deathtrap, having knowingly and deliberately jumped into it, you even offer to have the Lord's flesh soaked in the marinade of your own filth for every forgiveness you can squeeze out of him. And best of all: You don't even understand or realise it.
edit on 6-1-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Akragon

Jesus died to "negate" the barrier that sin provides. Jesus said be ye Holy (or perfected) even as I am Holy. Jesus said that, not Paul. What Paul explains is HOW to manage that...

It is very possible..you just have to be willing to meet Jesus half way.


No... there was never a barrier between man and God... Such things are mans nonsense...

His death did not negate anything... T'was an innocent man, put to death because he was a threat to the ruling powers... and his followers would not defend him, as he said... "IF this were my kingdom, my people would fight for me"

The one thing his death did show, was that life exists beyond death... in that sense he conquered death...

What you might try, as I've suggested before... is to get your head out of Pauls writing and focus on what Jesus said...

Once you know his words, you will see the error of Paul... And the OT for that matter

And yes it is possible to be "holy"... Following Paul is not the way though... Faith alone is simply not enough


edit on 6-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

I do know his words. So..what are you saying, that Jesus lied or told us to do a thing that we as humans are unable to when HE said Be ye Holy even as I am Holy?

I am not one to think Jesus lied.. don't know about you.
edit on 6-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:12 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

Ahem... edited that to answer your question




posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:23 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

Yes, faith is enough. Faith, because Jesus took the burden. We must have faith that Jesus took that burden off us, and that it is easy then to walk away from whatever it is that God wants us to walk away from.

That is what is called the refining fire of faith. We have faith that this is easy, that there is no burden of necessity upon us, and we walk away.

Our part, is to be willing to walk away, but the burden, the desire for whatever it is, was removed through Jesus death upon the cross.

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

edit on 6-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:27 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB


try showing that with the gospels and not Paul


edit on 6-1-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

Why when Paul explained it so well!

God also explained it to me.. it was how I walked away from 15 years worth of pain medicine in 3 days without much by way of even withdrawals, which by rights I should have had.



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

Right... because Jesus didn't teach anything like that...

What He did teach was how NOT to sin... the burden of our sin is our own...

You can not place your sins on another being... it just doesn't work that way...

This dates all the way back to the OT, where they would "place their sins on a lamb", spill its blood... and their sins would be forgiven.... except that didn't work back then... and it doesn't work now...

Tribal mentality is what its called... Death brings forgiveness... its a lie




posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:34 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB


James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.



Luke 6
46 Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


According to Paul faith is enough but according to Jesus and James faith alone is not enough.

And no, faith does not automatically lead to good works, I see that argument a lot. If faith automatically leads to good works then James would have had no reason to write what he did because faith would always lead to good works and there would be no such thing as "dead" faith.



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

No, HE took the burden of sin from us. We CAN just walk away..

Paul said:
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


Jesus said: For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

In 1 Peter it says: He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Works is the evidence of Christ in us. Not the reason Christ is in us - since we were saved by Grace and not from anything we did.

Saying you have faith, and not have any action of Christ in you, is nothing more than a lie then, real faith has something to show for itself, and that is Christ in us. The evidence of which is works.

Paul said:

"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down.

edit on 6-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: windword

The reason why Jesus said to the crippled man that his sins were forgiven, was that back then being paralysed meant you were a sinner, and that God crippled people or smote with sickness and disease those who sinned against him. If you had seizures like epilepsy this wasn't a disease that could be cured, it was a demon infestation. Jesus at several occasions publicly loathed this way of thinking, saying things like how the sons shall not have to die for their fathers' sins, but a son might inherit his father's muscular disease or his mother's syphilis though.



posted on Jan, 6 2015 @ 11:43 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Akragon

No, HE took the burden of sin from us. We CAN just walk away..

Paul said:
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


Jesus said: For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

In 1 Peter it says: He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed


So peter is the Saviour then? Or Paul?

What did he mean when he said one must "lose his life"?

Did he mean all you have to do is believe in my name.... OR was there a little work involved?

Of course you can just walk away... that is completely beside the point of this conversation...

Don't make him your scape goat brother... Bare your own cross... Don't make him do it for you








 
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