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Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

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posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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a reply to: xstealth




3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures


According to what scriptures?

You do know that Paul, supposedly, wrote that, not Jesus, right? Paul never met Jesus nor quoted anything he said. Paul got everything he knew about Jesus Christ through "revelation", in other words, he heard voices in his head.


For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.




posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:42 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: xstealth




3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures


According to what scriptures?

You do know that Paul, supposedly, wrote that, not Jesus, right? Paul never met Jesus nor quoted anything he said. Paul got everything he knew about Jesus Christ through "revelation", in other words, he heard voices in his head.


For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.




Paul was spoken to by Jesus directly in the road to Damascus. If you don't believe what Paul wrote then you don't believe in the new testament, period. That makes this entire thread invalid.

Secondly, he did die for our sins. When he said "tear down this temple, and in 3 day's I'll build it again", everyone who heard knew that that temple was the only place they could make sacrifices for their sins, without the temple they can't sacrifice and can't get forgiveness for their sins, which is the exact situations the Jews find themselves in now, since they refuse to acknowledge the last sacrifice.

www.openbible.info...

edit on 4/1/15 by xstealth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:44 PM
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originally posted by: xstealth
1 Corinthians 15:3New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

www.biblegateway.com...:3


There it is, in the Bible, plain as day.

Who am I going to believe? OP? Or the Holy Word of God.

Thread debunked...


It's not a question as to whether or not you believe windword or the 'Holy Word of God'. Windword provided material from the bible, the book you believe to be holy. Indeed, you should instead be asking yourself whether you believe Paul or the author of the Gospel of Matthew, as the bible simply contradicts itself in this case...



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:47 PM
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originally posted by: daaskapital

originally posted by: xstealth
1 Corinthians 15:3New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

www.biblegateway.com...:3


There it is, in the Bible, plain as day.

Who am I going to believe? OP? Or the Holy Word of God.

Thread debunked...


It's not a question as to whether or not you believe windword or the 'Holy Word of God'. Windword provided material from the bible, the book you believe to be holy. Indeed, you should instead be asking yourself whether you believe Paul or the author of the Gospel of Matthew, as the bible simply contradicts itself in this case...


windword has no comprehension to the context of the verses in Matthew, they do not relate to the sacrifice of Jesus.

There can't be a contradiction if they are not talking about the same thing.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:51 PM
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a reply to: xstealth




Paul was spoken to by Jesus directly in the road to Damascus.


No he didn't. He heard a voice and talked to a hallucination, not a flesh and blood man. Or, so he claimed.



If you don't believe what Paul wrote then you don't believe in the new testament, period. That makes this entire thread invalid.


That's nonsense! You don't have to believe the New Testament to read it and judge it's veracity. The New Testament is full of contradictions. Jesus teaching of forgiveness contradicts the doctrine that claims he died in order to forgive sins. Jesus was forgiving people their sins, according to the Bible, way before he died, and telling his followers that should do the same.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 08:52 PM
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John 8:24
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

These are the direct words from Jesus, saying unless you believe in him, you can not be forgiven from your sins and will die in them.


Matthew 20:28

Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 09:02 PM
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originally posted by: xstealth

originally posted by: daaskapital

originally posted by: xstealth
1 Corinthians 15:3New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

www.biblegateway.com...:3


There it is, in the Bible, plain as day.

Who am I going to believe? OP? Or the Holy Word of God.

Thread debunked...


It's not a question as to whether or not you believe windword or the 'Holy Word of God'. Windword provided material from the bible, the book you believe to be holy. Indeed, you should instead be asking yourself whether you believe Paul or the author of the Gospel of Matthew, as the bible simply contradicts itself in this case...


windword has no comprehension to the context of the verses in Matthew, they do not relate to the sacrifice of Jesus.

There can't be a contradiction if they are not talking about the same thing.


Stop showing condescension towards windword. The quoted verses in Matthew do not have anything to do with Jesus' sacrifice, and that is the point. On one hand, you have Paul saying that Jesus died in order for our sins to be forgiven. On the other, you have the author of the Gospel of Matthew allegedly quoting Jesus who said that in order to be forgiven, one has to forgive others themselves.

So what is it? Are we to believe Paul and agree that Jesus died for us and our sins? Or are we to believe the alleged words of Jesus who said that God will forgive us as we forgive others?

Everyone has their own interpretations of the bible and its texts, and i agree with windword here. I think the text in Matthew is quite clear in what it says on forgiveness, and i think it inherently contradicts the Christian teachings of only finding salvation and forgiveness through Jesus' sacrifice.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 09:15 PM
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a reply to: xstealth

And I get accused of taking things out of context? Jesus isn't saying anything about dying for sin in this story. He just finished forgiving the adulteress, just a few verses above!


12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


(Hmm, Exactly the same thing that was claimed of Horus)


13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


(Hmmm, Almost the exact same thing that the Buddha told Maya! When Maya demanded to know who would "bear witness" of him, the Buddha claimed, "The Mother" bore his witness. )


19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


There's nothing in there about him dying for their sins. They were cursed to die "in there sins" because they were from "beneath"!


edit on 4-1-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 09:44 PM
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a reply to: windword

I think you'll find this book rather interesting.

Paul the Mythmaker


From Library Journal

Maccoby's book, written for the intelligent general reader, presents in clear and persuasive but controversial form his thesis that Paul synthesized Judaism, Gnosticism, and mystery religion to create Christianity as a cosmic savior religion. According to Maccoby, Paul's Pharisaism was his own invention, though actually he was probably associated with the Sadducees. Maccoby attributes the origins of Christian anti-Semitism to Paul and claims that Paul's view of women, though inconsistent, reflects his Gnosticism in its antifeminist aspects. A Talmudic scholar, Maccoby believes that Paul's wide variance from the Jerusalem Church (Nazarenes, under James and Peter) led to the separation of Christianity from Judaism. Recommended for theological and larger public libraries. Carolyn M. Craft, English, Philosophy & Modern Languages Dept., Longwood Coll., Farmville, Va.
Copyright 1986 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

www.amazon.com...



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 09:56 PM
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a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows

Cool! Thanks, I just read through some of reviews. Looks good!



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 10:12 PM
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a reply to: windword

I think we should start a new religion. A one world religion. This religion will be called, humanity. The religion will only consist of a few simple rules:

1. The life you have been given is a gift, use it wisely and respectfully to the earth and all its inhabitants.
2. Use common sense instead of irrational choices.
3. Learn from your mistakes.
4. Do onto others as you would do onto them, unless you would do them harm, then do onto yourself the harm.
5. Love everything and everyone with the love that gave you life.



posted on Jan, 4 2015 @ 10:35 PM
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I believe in the story of Jesus. He had great prophetic advise for the rest of the world, and realized that the PTB at the time would persecute the public and deny them of freedom of expression and compassion towards others.

I do not believe he "died for our sins". He would have lived a lot longer if he was not the victim of corrupt politics. The idea that you can do the most horrible of things and then be forgiven by confessing it, or doing something kind for someone else and being exonerated for knowingly violating the rights of others is not conducive of a progressive message to heal society, and I do not believe that is what he was preaching.

What he wanted was peace in the world and respect for the reasons of your existence. We still have not got that.



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 03:47 AM
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a reply to: xstealth

Yes, for heaven's sake, use Paul to refute Jesus, neat, but you've been doing it for 2000 years, it's getting old. Paul was the devil that surpassed Peter and Judas.
edit on 5-1-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: ....



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 07:35 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That's actually what started me researching Paul...

When I came to ATS I got in a few debates with certain members, and they attempted to counter Jesus words with Paul

I knew something was wrong right there...

Christianity turned to Paulianity after that




posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 07:50 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

It hasn't really changed, it's just the way the Church has been for as long as it's existed. Have you ever wondered why there is a saint Paul and a saint Peter and even a saint Michael the arch angel. But Jesus isn't a Catholic saint. There is no saint Jesus. It's as if they avoid any connection between Jesus and humanity. They even still claim his mother was a virgin even after having borne plenty of other children after Jesus. I mean, I could understand that a virgin could give birth to one child during two millennias' time, but to be married twice and having plenty children it must have been awfully hard keeping the secret after a while. But for the Church? Hah. 'Once a virgin always a virgin' it seems.
edit on 5-1-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: ....



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 08:05 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Well... Jesus needs no sainthood

To them he's God in the flesh...

I just find it rather amazing... They have four books that have his words in them, but they prefer Paul...

I mean how does that even work??

Theres three accounts of his conversion on the road to Damascus... none are the same, he didn't teach the same thing as Jesus did... He never met Jesus... Claims to have been taught directly by him, yet there isn't a lick of evidence of it aside from the word of a Pharisee...

But YUP...


He's right... It boarderline idiotic

But whatever, to each their own I guess




posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 08:46 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

You forget that in order to be a Catholic saint there must be a few things in order. Firstly, the prospect must be dead (somehow the angels are all dead to the clergy), and if you'd come back to life, you weren't really dead and they can't have saints running around telling them what to do. Secondly, there must be full agreement between the saint and the Church evident in doctrine, message and mission. Unless you interpret the Gospel through Paul's spectacles, Jesus' main message is basically that of orthodox Judaism. Nothing new or provocative in what Jesus preaches really, but compared to the scribes and the priests and the different politicians he used to discuss with, Jesus was in some ways a liberal, he denounced Hillel on several occasions, that would be the Pharicees (rabbis, talmudists), and though he taught to focus on the Torah alone like the Saduqee party (aristocracy, priests, scribes) and the elite-- he seems to have had a view on resurrection and judgement day as the rabbis and the Pharicee party. Paul is a typical Pharicee.
edit on 5-1-2015 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 08:51 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus could never be a saint. The saints intercede between Humanity and God. Catholics believe Jesus is god, they would not expect him to intercede with himself.



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 02:43 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

. . . and they attempted to counter Jesus words with Paul . . .
Obviously they were misinterpreting Paul since he doesn't contradict Jesus.

What people like that do is insert definitions for the terms that Paul used, but definitions that did not exist when Paul was writing.



posted on Jan, 5 2015 @ 04:05 PM
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originally posted by: Emerys
a reply to: windword

I think we should start a new religion. A one world religion. This religion will be called, humanity. The religion will only consist of a few simple rules:

1. The life you have been given is a gift, use it wisely and respectfully to the earth and all its inhabitants.
2. Use common sense instead of irrational choices.
3. Learn from your mistakes.
4. Do onto others as you would do onto them, unless you would do them harm, then do onto yourself the harm.
5. Love everything and everyone with the love that gave you life.


Amend that with:
1. Realize 'the law of one'.
2. Understand you incarnated here under a specific contract (AS YOU MADE/SIGNED IT; with your higher self, and I don't care how small that print became at the bottom of) to right wrongs in your past lives to progress your soul.
3. To become in gnosis awareness.
4. To remember who you used to be (ARE) in the higher dimensions; (you don't exactly have a third D material body in those .
5. Watch as many Walt Disney Movies as possible during this transient lifetime (metaphors hidden as to what is really going on RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES).
edit on 5-1-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



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