'Fix Society': Transgender Teen Posted Plea Before Suicide

originally posted by: Annee
And we can look at this another way.

This unhappy transgender teen, who felt there was no future for her, may have just saved hundreds of other transgender teens.

Perspective.

Or inspired hundreds to do the same.
I guess we'll see if it changes anything at all.

a reply to: snarky412

I think there are places, especially in developed cities, where transgender can live comfortably with not too much discrimination (though always the chance of some hatred).

I worked with a guy who went transgender, and most of the people at work were fairly supportive and did not change their attitude toward him; but he was a nice guy to begin with. Not sure how he would fare if he were trying to get that job after he was transgender though..

I have no issues with anyone who wants to be lesbian, gay, transgender whatever.......

But heres my issue.....

What right do you have to force someone to accept you, when you dont want to be forced to accept their views?

And then kill yourself?

Seems hypocritical

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
What right do you have to force someone to accept you, when you dont want to be forced to accept their views?

And then kill yourself?

Seems hypocritical

There is a league of difference between positive acceptance, passive acceptance, toleration, and straight out active rejection. The argument you're making is the same one some religious people make when they say, 'why can't you just tolerate me hating you, you stupid gay person!'

Some of my family members don't like my tattoos. They don't ask me to cover them up all the time. One of my friends changed their name. It's a bit odd. I call them by their chosen name though. One of my relatives drives a banana yellow jeep with something that rhymes with 'buck trucking putting' on the back (you work it out), guess what? Not enough for active rejection. Silly examples yes, too serious a topic to use real ones.

There's nothing unreasonable about a teenager being traumatized at their parents not accepting or even tolerating them. Parents are there to help navigate that, but they also have to accept that eventually their child needs to take some control for themselves. For example, getting their own therapist. (You would be surprised at the number of people that don't transition anyway)

What you're asking for is a level of Buddhist like enlightenment from a teenager that most people don't have.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
No, I'm not going to pity transgender kids.
There's nothing wrong with them except for possibly a case of denying physical reality.
The media is trying to push one more group for protected status as victims in our society.

At what point does a transgender person's abuse become real for you and compassion actually happen?

Locked in the basement? Sprayed with a hose? Denied by their parents? Neatly committed suicide in a self disposable blender? Where is that line where your compassion actually kicks in? Even if we accept your statement that the only thing wrong is a disconnect with physical reality, would you support the abuse of a schizophrenic? Use Jesus to cure phantom arm syndrome? Notice I'm not even making an argument about the appropriate treatment, all I'm saying is they needed compassion and a doctor. They cried out for help multiple times. Transsexualism is a tragic diagnosis, no?

On a side note, many transgender people are actually intersexed as in their condition is immediately physically evident from birth. They often have the same issues as transsexual people. Are they more or less deserving of compassion? Or perhaps in the same bracket.

We've had this convo before animuls, so I don't expect much head way. Maybe it's the dog avatar the compels me to try haha

a reply to: Pinke

There is a league of difference between positive acceptance, passive acceptance, toleration, and straight out active rejection. The argument you're making is the same one some religious people make when they say, 'why can't you just tolerate me hating you, you stupid gay person!'

So because the parents didnt accept the fact that their child who was a male wanted to dress and be called by a females name , they hated him?

You say there's a league of difference, there's also a league of difference in the parents hating him and the parents deciding they didnt accept his life style......

There are a few of my family members that lead life styles that I dont have to accept but I dont love them any less......

Essentially these people are saying there is no middle ground, you accept me or this is the consequences......

My sister in law is lesbian, so i get the whole issues it can sometimes cause to arrise in families, however within ours it didnt......

However, if my daughter came to me and started dressing like a man and said that I need to call her Charles, it wouldnt happen.....

Now when she turns 18 and moves out and wants to change her name to whatever and lead the lifestyle she wants then sure I hae no problem with that and ill respect her wishes......

But this whole "its this way or the highway" bs needs to stop

One group cant demand acceptance all while disregarding the others point of view......that makes one no better than the other ...there needs to be tolerance and understanding on both sides

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Essentially these people are saying there is no middle ground, you accept me or this is the consequences......

I object to the term 'these people' on multiple levels. There is no trans-terrorist-suicide-community hive mind. There are plenty of trans persons who have friends that think they're odd, it's pretty unavoidable for them. Think you'll find that a lot of trans people have to be a lot more tolerant than most religious people in a Christian majority nation. Regardless ...

Could be said the parents were saying there is no middle ground as evidenced here.

There is not approving, and then there is actively attempting to prevent and threatening negative action. This family was probably doing the latter. I don't know, I wasn't there, but the child had no power in this relationship. I actually feel for the parents too. This is one of the most difficult things to understand about the human condition and it's very sad. However, their child's beliefs were not being imposed on them at all. They didn't suddenly become 'unChristian' because of it did they?

Edit: you did a whole bunch of edits. You seem to believe that trans# people are a terrorist organization that threatens suicide en masse like lemmings if they don't get what they want. They meet on Tuesdays at the rec center, so we can probably drone strike them and save Merka. After that we can go after the schizophrenics too, they're also committing suicide at an abnormal rate. Jerks! *Shakes fist*

a reply to: Pinke

I object to the term 'these people' on multiple levels.

Why must people find so many reasons to be offended........

People who are constantly offended can never be placated........

Could be said the parents were saying there is no middle ground as evidenced

because they refused to call him by his given name ? thats intolerance in your eyes? again.....no middle ground.....

you did a whole bunch of edits. You seem to believe that trans# people are a terrorist organization that threatens suicide en masse like lemmings if they don't get what they want

you assume way too much, and your vitriol is palpable and misplaced........

perhaps you should do some evaluating yourself here, ive been cordial in tried to be measured and fair in my responses.....

you however seem to be taking an aggressive and accusatory stance with your many many assumptions......

To me thats indicative of the problem.....

One side is willing to have a dialog, the other refuses and insists on being constantly offended and angry in order to shut down the conversation.....

Im open to discussion, im not open to aggressive posturing and accusations

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Jamie1

All I can say, once again is, Life is not a textbook.

All your posts, no matter the subject are the same. As if they come out of a black and white textbook.

I understand your points perfectly. But, real life just doesn't function like a textbook.

You keep comparing what I'm sharing to a text book. That's your perception.

The whole point is real life DOES function exactly like I've described it. It's not a text book description. It's how your brain, my brain, everybody's brain is functioning right now.

You THOUGHTS are what cause your emotional pain. Nothing else. The meaning you give things.

You can't sustain negative emotions without giving events meaning.

That's not from a text book. That's how life works.

How about an example?

If I looked at a woman and called her a "Bi3ch" would she get angry? Offended? Upset? Feel rejected?

What if the woman was from China and didn't know what the word "Bi3ch" meant? Think her reaction would be different to the words she heard?

There are many cultures that celebrate death and don't grieve. Why is that?

It's because they have different beliefs, i.e., thoughts and give death a different meaning.

When was the last time you were angry? What were the facts of the situation? What story or meaning did you give those facts?

All it takes is the AWARENESS that it's the stories, not the facts, that are causing emotional suffering to free you from it.

Happiness is a choice.

Just try it. Next time you're pissed off, observe your own thoughts and see which thoughts are causing you to be pissed off.

originally posted by: Galadriel
a reply to: Jamie1

Yes, we all have choices. We all can choose not to perceive something a certain way, to not take it personally, to not get caught up in the "story" we tell ourselves about the physical facts. The examples you have given about coaching/counseling women, girls about how they perceive and attach meaning to horrible events (rape, incest, bullying, whatever) is great.

The only thing that is different here in this real life flesh and blood, life and death case is that she (or he if you choose) did not have the benefit of such a wise and clinical sage such as yourself. In fact, it seems she did not have anyone who could help her see logically that her depression, lack of hope, feelings of oppression -- whatever -- could be viewed as choices.

It's like Victor Frankl (spelling?) and the choices in thinking and reacting to being in a concentration camp. I get it. I think most of us here after all these posts, get it. But this young teen did not have the benefit of counseling or an adult mind of her own, or a mom or dad who could help her see the truth about choices.

So you can say all you want about choices. If a child of 5 years old is depressed and says, Momma, I need to go walk in front of a truck and die so I can go be with daddy in heaven -- which is literally exactly what my child said to me the day of his dad's funeral - at age 5 -- he doesn't have the capacity to understand how to not perceive the situation differently. A child of 5 lives in the moment, lives in an emotional whirlwind - and isn't going to be able to rationally think through the ramifications of such "stories."

I know 40 year olds who are lost in their stories. They never learned anything different. Is it there fault they were never exposed to that kind of thinking? I fall into my own stories sometimes. We're not machines, we're not perfect, and sometimes a helping hand and person outside of the story is what is needed. Joshua/Leelah didn't seem to have that person. Not her fault, is it? Compassion, empowerment, kindness and clear thinking -- all would have been helpful.

I agree with everything you said. I'm not posting here to judge the person who killed themselves, or his/her parents.

What you expressed was beautiful. What you have raised is what I've found to be most important. When we're in the middle of an intense situation or emotion, we are lost inside the stories and we believe them to be real. What helps in those moments is having people around you that pull you up instead of reinforce the stories that are causing the pain.

I'm passionate about this because it works. I've helped people going through what could be perceived as horrific situations.

What does NOT work is voluntarily giving up your personal power by putting the responsibility for pain on external situations or things you have no control over. And it doesn't help to then put the responsibility for one's own happiness on somebody else, or society, or whatever to be different so that you can be happy.

That's the second tragedy in this story. Not only did this soul kill himself, he went out blaming society and requesting that society change so that others like him can be happy. The answer is much easier. It's being aware that you can be happy no matter what the external situation. In each moment, we all have the power to be happy, now, no matter what's happened in our past or in our lives.

You have the capacity to help your child grow up with this awareness. You child has incredible powers. He has the power to give any meaning he wants to any situation. So do you. We all do.

And you're right. It's nobody's fault they're stuck in their stories. But we can help them see it's their stories that are causing them to suffer. We can help people walk away from the trucks in the world instead of walking in front of them, without the need to change anything in their external world.

originally posted by: Galadriel
-- which is literally exactly what my child said to me the day of his dad's funeral - at age 5 -- he doesn't have the capacity to understand how to not perceive the situation differently. A child of 5 lives in the moment, lives in an emotional whirlwind - and isn't going to be able to rationally think through the ramifications of such "stories."

Heartbreaking, but as the adult in charge you have to keep perspective and say the right things. Do the right things, and be supportive.

My 7 year old grandson, who I am raising said: "I'm sorry to tell you this, but I have to pass away to be with my daddy in Heaven". His daddy passed on Christmas Day, before his son was a month old.

It's something we deal with every Christmas.

And as you say, my grandson really doesn't comprehend anything other then his dad is not there. He is told his dad is in Heaven. He does not really comprehend what passed or Heaven means.

a reply to: snarky412

Many.....Many people deal with issues like this and make a go of it. We should celebrate those people not the people who take the cowardly way out. I know this is harsh but it is the truth.

originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: snarky412

Many.....Many people deal with issues like this and make a go of it. We should celebrate those people not the people who take the cowardly way out. I know this is harsh but it is the truth.

Quietly go into the night. Don't make waves.

Got it.

a reply to: Jamie1

Sounds very much like Dianetics which is Scientology's text book.


I'm not sure how much your opinion is based on confirmed Science rather than just hypothesis...

your brain, my brain, everybody's brain

We are not clones, we are individuals.


So as you said...
"I will respectfully disagree with you based on my own experience."

a reply to: Jamie1

She did,

she saved my nephew who came out today. He posted a video expressing exactly that he is known as a young teen boy 16 but he feels happier as a female. At first since he is very artistic and a videographer I thought he made the coming out video in support but yes it's true, my nephew came out today as trangendered and I know that he will suffer for coming out. But I also know living a lie will gnaw at anyone and drive them to pain and death. Luckily my sisters support him and he has the support of friends. But unfortunately in some bible belt hokie areas of the US it's less accepted.

I know a great weight has been lifted off of my nephews shoulders and that he will be on a better path one of being "who you are inside". Not who society wants you to be. It really is a western stigma that is being broken down little by little because it is true in island societies (fafa) and native (true spirits) allow feminine men to emerge and be accepted moreso than patriarchical homophobic western society does.

It is pretty sad that people are born with this type of mental dysfunction. I feel its only going to get more common with all these poisons and chemicals that are consumed during pregnancy. And instead of trying to figure out the exact cause and cure, we are just going to have to accept it and make it normal.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: snarky412

Many.....Many people deal with issues like this and make a go of it. We should celebrate those people not the people who take the cowardly way out. I know this is harsh but it is the truth.

Quietly go into the night. Don't make waves.

Got it.

It is called personal truth which is subjective.....Not waves. I am 100% pro gay rights. Taking one's own life is selfish and cruel for the people who have to live with it.


Also it is rather arrogant to try and silence viewpoints that differ with your own. You have no idea what life experiences lead to one's own personal truths. But yet you sit upon your judgement chair made of salt. I will say it again we should celebrate the people who overcome and find peace with who they are.



Also I wanted to add do you get it now?

"Fix Society" ...


poor Johnny, this is what happens when you keep telling people they're 'special'

nothing wrong with him, we need to fix society!

He committed suicide. He also had a chemical imbalance in his brain, which made him think he is something he is not. His parents tried to get him therapy, but it seems he was being uncooperative.

I don't see any fault with his parents, or with society for that matter (at least in regards to this). If he moved out and was able to support himself, he could have pretended to be anything he wanted. But if you are going to live in your parents house, eat your parents food, and use all of their utilities, then you better damn well be willing to live by their rules. If cross-dressing is against those rules, then you just have to live with that.

Fix Society? Sure, but lets not have the insane try to fix it. If you are seeing a psychologist or a psychiatrist you aren't in any position to judge society.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: Pinke

Why must people find so many reasons to be offended........

People who are constantly offended can never be placated........

Actually not offended in the way you're implying at all MBM, just have a tendency to reject generalisations for the most part on both sides of that stereotypical 'offended' fence. You'll find me arguing both sides of the generalisation fence on ATS - it's not an ideological thing for me. 'Those people' who want everything their way that you refer to are on all sides unfortunately. I realized this long time ago. (Used to be one actually)

Sorry if you're upset at my sense of humor also, not my intention. You're pretty sharp yourself in most threads I've seen you, so I didn't expect you to take any of that to heart particularly or I'd have toned it. (No that isn't me teasing.)

I kind of get your point. I'm not sure an event like this is the correct venue to use your personal politics about personal entitlement? Parental authority debate fine ... but it seems most people (you?) want humans from ages 0 - 18 to obey with absolute authority what their parents want? Child was 17. At some point as a parent you have to let them be themselves. I don't see how day 365 makes a difference to day 364 or 363 etc ... Lot of people believe that a child becomes an adult exactly 6570 days after coming out of a vagina. I guess I don't get that. Seems to be very classical 'my way or highway' stuff really.

Hope that clears up any hurt feelings, honestly not intending to wind people up 48 hours after newies.

sounds like the parents isolated their child,then psyhcologically tortured them.
Is it any wonders children kill themselves if parents abuse them?