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'Fix Society': Transgender Teen Posted Plea Before Suicide

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posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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originally posted by: jaffo
Just so we're clear, I am leaving this thread and won't be back. It's a waste of my time. This kid had a mental problem and so does everyone else who thinks they are "the wrong gender." It's ridiculous.


Knowledge vs opinion.

I've done a lot of research in the last 20 years -- ever since I worked at a company where I was the minority being a straight female. I wanted to understand my coworkers better.




posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Mousygretchen

Just to be clear as well, I am not denouncing anything.

I am simply stating that this whole 'transgender' thing is a mental illness.

For someone to claim they feel like the opposite sex, they must first create in their minds what they believe the opposite sex feels like. They have to use their imagination and assume what the opposite sex feels like. This mental assumption they create in their mind with their imagination is a belief based on observations and not experience, because they are not and will never be the opposite sex. These observations are influenced by society.

In the end, when they say "they feel like the opposite sex", what they really feel like is something they have imagined in the mind, and NOT what it feels like in reality.

That is pretty much a mental issue.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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Yeah I would agree with that. You're right. But there's quite a lot of transgenders out there.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: Mousygretchen

Right, and here is a quote:



The very notion of transgenderism is a myth. For what does it mean to identify as a particular gender? Gender roles are largely defined by the culture in which you live, and therefore are not genetically based. Additionally what many identify as "gender" tendencies would not have existed in "prehistoric man". Since the DNA coding for gender "tendencies" was not originally present, it can not be currently present. Our culture is so adept at sending confusing messages about children's identities, it is no wonder that so many of our youth are incapable of dealing with the deluge of the PC ideas of the cultural elite.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:26 PM
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Marci Bowers ----- transgender surgeon

I really think she knows more then someone having an uninformed opinion.



Bowers was named Mark at birth, and first attempted the transition from man to woman at the age of 19, but was unsuccessful due to a lack of family support and funds. Twenty years later, she successfully completed the procedure. Bowers married eleven years prior to her surgery, and remains married to her female spouse. They have three children, and while they no longer have a conventional marital relationship, Bowers says they are "closer than sisters."During her spare time, Bowers likes to play golf, read, cook and travel to Seattle to visit her children. She was also shown on a Discovery Health Channel one-hour LGBT-themed special about two transsexual women transitioning and their stories, "Switching Sexes: The Aftermath".





Bowers is often asked about sex reassignment surgery on persons under the age of 18.She has been critical of prohibitions against this in the WPATH Standards of Care. She has stated, "I believe the surgery should be responsibly performed for the proper, carefully screened candidates, not at age 18, but at age 16 or 17, while still under the caring environment of home, allowing some social transition still in high school. It is the only morally responsible approach to this problem. We have already made that change in our standards here, and I will live to see that change be made globally as well."



edit on 2-1-2015 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:30 PM
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originally posted by: WeAre0ne
a reply to: Mousygretchen

Right, and here is a quote:



The very notion of transgenderism is a myth. For what does it mean to identify as a particular gender? Gender roles are largely defined by the culture in which you live, and therefore are not genetically based. Additionally what many identify as "gender" tendencies would not have existed in "prehistoric man". Since the DNA coding for gender "tendencies" was not originally present, it can not be currently present. Our culture is so adept at sending confusing messages about children's identities, it is no wonder that so many of our youth are incapable of dealing with the deluge of the PC ideas of the cultural elite.


LINK?

This opinion comes from where?



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:49 PM
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originally posted by: Mousygretchen
It's the same thing as saying " I should have been born a lizard, but I am a human instead"--except few if anyone in history has ever said that.


www.frontpagemag.com...




posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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I have this idea but its hard for me to articulate so im going to give it my best

well I know that gender "roles" are a man made idea. its because the gods created us to procreate.

but now we're learning that whatever your born with, it doesn't determine your "gender role" in life.

and that our sexuality does not define who we are as individuals. so I guess in a way being transgender might seem "artificial", and in a way it kind of is artificial. but the kid commited suicide. having Christian parents is like the OPPOSITE of what you want when your grow up and turn out LGBT



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: Mousygretchen

I look at it this way. The creation of a human being is pretty damn complicated.

You throw all the "stuff" into a big pot and stir. What you end up with is a plethora of variations.

Variations are variations. They are not good or bad, they are just variations. The concept of the "stuff" being mixed in a way that "all things female" get put into a male physical wrapping is very acceptable as just another variation.

And you're right. It is man who then puts them in boxes of what's acceptable --- or not.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Jamie1

Telling society that it's okay to be mean and cruel to others is not the answer either.


I never said it was the answer.

The answer is not giving up your personal power to others who you can't control.

Nobody is forced to feel bad when a stranger calls them a name. That's a choice they make. And yes, this used to be taught. Ever hear of "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

It's really that simple.

Teach kids that they don't have to have "hurt feelings" based on what other people say or do. They can be happy no matter what other people think of them.

How do you teach kids that?

By modeling that yourself.

The opposite is when validate blaming others for your feelings.

And no, it's not about being emotionless or robotic. It's about YOU choosing happiness and NOT robotically responding to other people based on THEIR actions.

Bottom line, kids need to be taught to stop blaming other people for their emotions. Of course that would require adults to show them how to do that.


What about multiple larger people crowding around one person and trapping them in a circle and yelling names at them, every day at school? If this occurred, would you concede that words can have actions? Do you think it would be just, if a persons feelings were hurt, instead of killing themselves, they killed their bullies?



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:37 PM
link   

originally posted by: Mousygretchen
I have this idea but its hard for me to articulate so im going to give it my best

well I know that gender "roles" are a man made idea. its because the gods created us to procreate.

but now we're learning that whatever your born with, it doesn't determine your "gender role" in life.

and that our sexuality does not define who we are as individuals. so I guess in a way being transgender might seem "artificial", and in a way it kind of is artificial. but the kid commited suicide. having Christian parents is like the OPPOSITE of what you want when your grow up and turn out LGBT



A lot of things are not what we want.

This is like the "everybody gets a trophy" and "we're not allowed to keep score" mindset.

It's a huge disservice to kids to teach them that other people have to act a certain way for them to be happy.

Games have winners and losers. First place gets a trophy. Sometimes you strike out. Sometimes people say things you don't want to hear. Sometimes you can't get what you want, and you can't force other people to give it to you.

What if this kid was a 17-year old girl from Beverly Hills who killed herself because her parents refused to get her breast implants?

It would still be a front page story, but the spin would be entirely different.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:38 PM
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Transgenders are delusional. They have a high rate of suicide both before and after their operation. I can see how patronizing crazy people could lower the rate of suicide, but is patronization really the way to go?

Anorexia isn't about food, and transgender is really about gender. Find the issues and get people the help they need, stop thinking patronization makes you nice and tolerant. While gender roles are mostly societal but gender IS evolutional. Chromosomes are like Shakeri's hips, they don't lie. To say that they do, is delusional.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:43 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Jamie1

Telling society that it's okay to be mean and cruel to others is not the answer either.


I never said it was the answer.

The answer is not giving up your personal power to others who you can't control.

Nobody is forced to feel bad when a stranger calls them a name. That's a choice they make. And yes, this used to be taught. Ever hear of "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

It's really that simple.

Teach kids that they don't have to have "hurt feelings" based on what other people say or do. They can be happy no matter what other people think of them.

How do you teach kids that?

By modeling that yourself.

The opposite is when validate blaming others for your feelings.

And no, it's not about being emotionless or robotic. It's about YOU choosing happiness and NOT robotically responding to other people based on THEIR actions.

Bottom line, kids need to be taught to stop blaming other people for their emotions. Of course that would require adults to show them how to do that.


What about multiple larger people crowding around one person and trapping them in a circle and yelling names at them, every day at school? If this occurred, would you concede that words can have actions? Do you think it would be just, if a persons feelings were hurt, instead of killing themselves, they killed their bullies?


Can you explain how your analogy is relevant?

"Hurt feelings" are the result of a person giving a meaning to external circumstances. The person giving the meaning to the event is still the person responsible for the meaning he or she gives to it.

And it's the meaning given to an event that causes the emotions. We get to choose the meaning we give everything.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:52 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: defuntion


Suicide is a cop out.

No. Suicide is a permanent escape from mental, emotional, and/or physical pain to such a degree, that you will do anything to make it stop. And if death is the only option that seems to be open at the time, you will take it. Until you have been there, in that place, you have no idea what it's like. And personally, I hope you never find out. I wouldn't wish that kind of pain on anyone. Even those who think they know what they would do in someone else's place, and are smug about it.



I am sorry, but you do not know me, and I am not smug.
I truly feel bad for this youth.
Suicide is not an escape though. It is a highly selfish act, and in this case meant to punish the parents who were left behind.

Again, the problem isn't with society. In This case, the blame is on the parents who didn't support their child.

And, that is my point. I am not picking on the child. It saddens me that this was their choice, but there were other options..
edit on 2-1-2015 by defuntion because: Clarfy



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 04:58 PM
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originally posted by: defuntion

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: defuntion


Suicide is a cop out.

No. Suicide is a permanent escape from mental, emotional, and/or physical pain to such a degree, that you will do anything to make it stop. And if death is the only option that seems to be open at the time, you will take it. Until you have been there, in that place, you have no idea what it's like. And personally, I hope you never find out. I wouldn't wish that kind of pain on anyone. Even those who think they know what they would do in someone else's place, and are smug about it.



I am sorry, but you do not know me, and I am not smug.
I truly feel bad for this youth.
Suicide is not an escape though. It is a highly selfish act, and in this case meant to punish the parents who were left behind.

Again, the problem isn't with society. I'm this case, the blame is on the parents who didn't support their child.

And, that is my point. I am not picking on the child. It saddens me that this was their choice, but there were other options..


The suicide note wasn't selfish. It was about hoping her death would help others.



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 05:03 PM
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originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Jamie1

Telling society that it's okay to be mean and cruel to others is not the answer either.


I never said it was the answer.

The answer is not giving up your personal power to others who you can't control.

Nobody is forced to feel bad when a stranger calls them a name. That's a choice they make. And yes, this used to be taught. Ever hear of "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

It's really that simple.

Teach kids that they don't have to have "hurt feelings" based on what other people say or do. They can be happy no matter what other people think of them.

How do you teach kids that?

By modeling that yourself.

The opposite is when validate blaming others for your feelings.

And no, it's not about being emotionless or robotic. It's about YOU choosing happiness and NOT robotically responding to other people based on THEIR actions.

Bottom line, kids need to be taught to stop blaming other people for their emotions. Of course that would require adults to show them how to do that.


What about multiple larger people crowding around one person and trapping them in a circle and yelling names at them, every day at school? If this occurred, would you concede that words can have actions? Do you think it would be just, if a persons feelings were hurt, instead of killing themselves, they killed their bullies?


Can you explain how your analogy is relevant?

"Hurt feelings" are the result of a person giving a meaning to external circumstances. The person giving the meaning to the event is still the person responsible for the meaning he or she gives to it.

And it's the meaning given to an event that causes the emotions. We get to choose the meaning we give everything.


Sometimes its not only not that easy, but perhaps the furthest thing from easy, to be the singled out kid in school, that everyone talks negatively about, picks on, etc. Yes, sure, they can smile and be happy and not let them bother them, but that is very much easier said than done, and school is meant to educate, having to deal with being verbally harassed and humiliated, even if its their choice to be affected by others actions, still does not present a desired environment to desire to go to each day to become educated. If a person cannot control how they feel when they are bullied, as perhaps the bully cannot not bully, and then it follows that the victim of the bully cannot control their feelings to no longer exist in their environment via suicide, do you think it is just, according to the nature of absolute nature and the upmost value of ones own life, for the victim of the bully to kill their bully instead of themselves?
edit on 2-1-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 05:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: defuntion

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: defuntion


Suicide is a cop out.

No. Suicide is a permanent escape from mental, emotional, and/or physical pain to such a degree, that you will do anything to make it stop. And if death is the only option that seems to be open at the time, you will take it. Until you have been there, in that place, you have no idea what it's like. And personally, I hope you never find out. I wouldn't wish that kind of pain on anyone. Even those who think they know what they would do in someone else's place, and are smug about it.



I am sorry, but you do not know me, and I am not smug.
I truly feel bad for this youth.
Suicide is not an escape though. It is a highly selfish act, and in this case meant to punish the parents who were left behind.

Again, the problem isn't with society. I'm this case, the blame is on the parents who didn't support their child.

And, that is my point. I am not picking on the child. It saddens me that this was their choice, but there were other options..


The suicide note wasn't selfish. It was about hoping her death would help others.


Yea. I disagree..
The note was meant to leave the parents feeling shameful for not accepting their child's identity.
If the child just wanted out of this life she wouldn't have left a note blaming society..
The act and the note were meant to hurt. Maybe as revenge for not being accepted.
I believe this was a selfish act. Suicide is selfish. It leaves all the people you love and that love you behind to feel responsible.

I have lived through this.
Again, not smug here. Suicide is never justifiable. It is self- murder. Completely selfish.

There are always other options. Always.
edit on 2-1-2015 by defuntion because: Clarify



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 05:18 PM
link   

originally posted by: defuntion

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: defuntion

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: defuntion


Suicide is a cop out.

No. Suicide is a permanent escape from mental, emotional, and/or physical pain to such a degree, that you will do anything to make it stop. And if death is the only option that seems to be open at the time, you will take it. Until you have been there, in that place, you have no idea what it's like. And personally, I hope you never find out. I wouldn't wish that kind of pain on anyone. Even those who think they know what they would do in someone else's place, and are smug about it.



I am sorry, but you do not know me, and I am not smug.
I truly feel bad for this youth.
Suicide is not an escape though. It is a highly selfish act, and in this case meant to punish the parents who were left behind.

Again, the problem isn't with society. I'm this case, the blame is on the parents who didn't support their child.

And, that is my point. I am not picking on the child. It saddens me that this was their choice, but there were other options..


The suicide note wasn't selfish. It was about hoping her death would help others.


Yea. I disagree..
The note was meant to leave the parents feeling shameful for not accepting their child's identity.
If the child just wanted out of this life she wouldn't have left a note blaming society..
The act and the note were meant to hurt. Maybe as revenge for not being accepted.
I believe this was a selfish act. Suicide is selfish. It leaves all the people you love and that love you behind to feel responsible.

I have lived through this.
Again, not smug here. Suicide is never justifiable. It is self- murder. Completely selfish.

There are always other options. Always.


But the parents deserve it. Maybe they learned a lesson, if they feel bad about what happened, it means they learned a lesson, if they dont, then there is no harm no foul.

It is also more selfish of you, to make any sort of value judgement on the subjective ontology of another sovereign entity doing what they want to themselves that does not physical effect another. I know that same thing can be said about the non physical affects of the world towards transgendered people, but still. You have no idea what it is like to live as another person, it is extremely selfish of you to think that your opinion should be the mana that should force another human to continue to exist instead of doing what they do. Now I agree completely that suicide is very bad, one of the worse things a person, especially young can do, there is greater potential, and certainly your argument holds greater credence the younger the human is, 17 imo is very young, but yea, my stance is it is not so cut and dry. I agree, 17 is too young...but once again, you dont know what a person feels like and has to go through. Is there no point you can imagine where you were being tortured to such an extent that you desired death as relief?
edit on 2-1-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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a reply to: snarky412

I have lots of transgender friends. They are all happy and accepted. This child's suicide was tragic, but do not make the mistake that is was justified and to be blamed on society.

Parents, genetics and mental illness are more worthy causes to blame.

I can not understand so many adults taking this child's words at face value. Sure they are sad. Sure they are heart breaking. But this is a victim of mental illness and a failure to notice it by all those around him.

End of story.

MM



posted on Jan, 2 2015 @ 05:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Jamie1

Telling society that it's okay to be mean and cruel to others is not the answer either.


I never said it was the answer.

The answer is not giving up your personal power to others who you can't control.

Nobody is forced to feel bad when a stranger calls them a name. That's a choice they make. And yes, this used to be taught. Ever hear of "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

It's really that simple.

Teach kids that they don't have to have "hurt feelings" based on what other people say or do. They can be happy no matter what other people think of them.

How do you teach kids that?

By modeling that yourself.

The opposite is when validate blaming others for your feelings.

And no, it's not about being emotionless or robotic. It's about YOU choosing happiness and NOT robotically responding to other people based on THEIR actions.

Bottom line, kids need to be taught to stop blaming other people for their emotions. Of course that would require adults to show them how to do that.


What about multiple larger people crowding around one person and trapping them in a circle and yelling names at them, every day at school? If this occurred, would you concede that words can have actions? Do you think it would be just, if a persons feelings were hurt, instead of killing themselves, they killed their bullies?


Can you explain how your analogy is relevant?

"Hurt feelings" are the result of a person giving a meaning to external circumstances. The person giving the meaning to the event is still the person responsible for the meaning he or she gives to it.

And it's the meaning given to an event that causes the emotions. We get to choose the meaning we give everything.


Sometimes its not only not that easy, but perhaps the furthest thing from easy, to be the singled out kid in school, that everyone talks negatively about, picks on, etc. Yes, sure, they can smile and be happy and not let them bother them, but that is very much easier said than done, and school is meant to educate, having to deal with being verbally harassed and humiliated, even if its their choice to be affected by others actions, still does not present a desired environment to desire to go to each day to become educated. If a person cannot control how they feel when they are bullied, as perhaps the bully cannot not bully, and then it follows that the victim of the bully cannot control their feelings to no longer exist in their environment via suicide, do you think it is just, according to the nature of absolute nature and the upmost value of ones own life, for the victim of the bully to kill their bully instead of themselves?


Your statement that a person cannot control their feelings is false.

Every feeling you have is the result of your own thoughts. So killing somebody because of your own thoughts is not just. Nobody forces you to give meaning to anything.

And yes, it is that easy. But kids (and adults) have to be taught it's that easy. Nobody forces you to be offended or insulted, or feel sad or hurt or stressed or angry.

An outside event happens, and we give it meaning. We and we alone control the meaning. Somebody says, "You're ugly" means nothing until we decide what it means.

It could mean you're ugly. So what?

It could mean the other person's having a bad day.

It could mean the other person is insecure.

The reality is those words mean NOTHING until we decide what they mean.

The actions we take follow the meaning we give something. If you give what somebody says a meaning that causes you to be upset, then act out violently against that person, you're acting based on your own thoughts, not their actions.

Why would that be just?



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