To Christian fundamentalism in the US

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The mediaeval church went overboard in looking for allegorical readings of scripture, which lead them to all sorts of weird interpretations.

That sounds interesting. Do you have more about these "weird interpretations"? Personally I have always considered the symbolic reading of the Bible is the only thing which matters, since the spiritual message of the Bible is, as far as religion is concerned, more important than the historicity of the events depicted.


Also it's quite ironic that Protestants are for a literal reading of the Bible, but when it comes to the book of Revelation, they are the ones going overboard with weird interpretations

only some protestants have a literal reading for the entire bible. when i read revelation i see a mix of metaphor, astronomy, physics, astrology and history. my view of it, may not be yours, and then again, it might, but the fact it's my view, means it doesn't pose a threat to your view, provided you don't expect to force your view on me (cause i don't plan on forcing my view on you).

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: undo
THE idea that american protestants are all fundies, is a false hood generated by media.

That's why my thread is about Christian fundamentalism, not about protestantism!

I think Fundamentalists represent around 15% percent of the Christians worldwide, but up to 40% of the Christians in the US.

That's quite frightening when you think about it. Are the figures as bad in Muslim countries which are considered fundamentalists by the west? I don't think so.

some fundies are identified as such because they follow certain talking points that the media says identifies them as fundamentalists, such as a disagreement with abortion, gay marriage issues and so on. but some are not fundie about one, and are completely fundie about the other. it's just not that easy to categorize. the numbers you are getting are from talking points, passed around like cookie cutter recipes for political debate. it's not reality.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Sorry but you are wrong. In Germany a percentage of your wages is automatically deducted to the church. No matter if you are a Catholic or Protestant everyone pays unless you go to city hall and sign a peice of paper stating you want to withdraw from the church and if you do that then you can not be buried in any local, state or government graveyard (which BTW are 99% of all graveyards).

It doesn't work like that. First it's obviously completely different from the voluntary tithing in the US. Secondly, the governments will finance the ministers of all cults indiscriminately, based on national demographics. It's about paying a salary to ministers, not about amassing wealth (otherwise your country would be stupid to spend more on its priests than needed). The fact that ministers are paid by the state actually prevent some of the problems found in the US causing the rise of televangelists, mega churches and weird cults.



And even then, you just further prove my point: the Church in Europe is rich too, so why no rise of fundamentalism? Because these things are not related to each other.

originally posted by: undo
the numbers you are getting are from talking points, passed around like cookie cutter recipes for political debate. it's not reality.

The pictures I posted represent an aspect of reality, and my question remains the same; what went wrong in the US that we can see such sight in the US frequently, but almost never in Europe?

I do not try to generalize, I'm trying to understand why in this XXIth century biblical literalism is still so popular in the US, and it even seems to be taught in schools to kids. It's not specifically a problem with protestantism, all religions can "evolve" in fundamentalism, but not all do it as successfully as Christian faith in the US.

the Church in Europe is rich too, so why no rise of fundamentalism? Because these things are not related to each other.

it was much worse (religiously speaking) a few decades ago. true, it was more homogenized and mainstream religions were the churches of favor, but the laws were stricter than now. for example, porn couldn't be sold in stores. lucy and ricky were not allowed to be filmed in the same bed together. all stores closed on sundays, period. gays were social pariahs and out of wedlock babies were secreted away to be adopted against the wishes of their mothers or aborted in back alleys. people had alot more spending power so were better off, financially.

on the other hand, racism was just as rampant as now (although today, the racism is alot more specific and alot less widespread).

a reply to: JUhrman

When secular ideology was mandated / forced into our lives.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: undo
the numbers you are getting are from talking points, passed around like cookie cutter recipes for political debate. it's not reality.

The pictures I posted represent an aspect of reality, and my question remains the same; what went wrong in the US that we can see such sight in the US frequently, but almost never in Europe?

I do not try to generalize, I'm trying to understand why in this XXIth century biblical literalism is still so popular in the US, and it even seems to be taught in schools to kids. It's not specifically a problem with protestantism, all religions can "evolve" in fundamentalism, but not all do it as successfully as Christian faith in the US.

who are the people holding the signs? is it the westborough folks? they are a psyop if i ever saw one.

originally posted by: undo
who are the people holding the signs? is it the westborough folks? they are a psyop if i ever saw one.

I have talked to many people during my various stay in the US, and if there is one thing I can say for sure, it's that racism and bigotry are not psyops. Far from me the idea that all Americans are like that, but it is a real problem that exists and it is often tied to religious fundamentalism.

Is the Creation museum a psyop too? Are people like Ken Ham Airforce Psyop undercover agents? Is the Texas Board of Education favoring a fundamentalist vision of the world in school a Psyop operation to make American kids scientifically illiterate?

No, all these things are real, from real people who really believe in them, and who have the power and support to proselytize.

I think it's a problem but I don't live in the US so maybe I'm just biased.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: undo
who are the people holding the signs? is it the westborough folks? they are a psyop if i ever saw one.

I have talked to many people during my various stay in the US, and if there is one thing I can say for sure, it's that racism and bigotry are not psyops. Far from me the idea that all Americans are like that, but it is a real problem that exists and it is often tied to religious fundamentalism.

agreed. and the identifying feature is the tendency to identify and label a large swath of people based purely on stereotypes, which this thread is attempting to do as well. i realize issues have to be dealt with somehow, but coming out of the gate with stereotypes for your examples, is not going to provide anything approaching reality. presuming you wish to actually know the truth, the truth is people are as different as night and day. for every fundie saying he/she disagrees with abortions, you've got ten more saying abortion should be allowed under certain circumstances, and this left, right, middle of the road is true for EVERY "identified" group of people on the planet. your wasting your brain space with your current argument, as it is not revealing -it's an inflammatory stereotyping, akin to the problems you say you are trying to address.

originally posted by: JUhrman
So I guess the question now becomes "Why have American Protestants started favoring biblical literalism a few hundred years ago?" And why has this never been challenged internally?

Again, secularism. We are force fed materialism and it eventuates/transpires literalism.

However, I have read countless thoughts from all over the world, from a lot of different forums etc., and I have not seen anyone that I think properly understands the spirituality of Christianity.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Secularism is pretty strong in Europe. Actually I believe it's even stronger than in the US (people don't have to swear on the Bible, there's no mention of God on our money, etc...)

So how can secularism explain the rise of fundamentalism in the US?

originally posted by: JUhrman
a reply to: Bleeeeep

Secularism is pretty strong in Europe. Actually I believe it's even stronger than in the US (people don't have to swear on the Bible, there's no mention of God on our money, etc...)

So how can secularism explain the rise of fundamentalism in the US?

it isn't a rise. it's the same thing it's always been. the only difference is it is being used as a set of talking points for political debate.

a reply to: undo

If you got a better word than fundamentalism to be used to discuss the specific type of Christian faiths gaining strength in the US among some protestants since the 19th century, I'm open to any suggestion.

If you don't like the term or think I'm making generalizations solely by trying to understand why they evolved so differently than other Christian Churches, I'm sorry because it's not my objective.

a reply to: undo

There were no fundamentalists in the US before the 19th century. If that's not a rise, I don't know what this is?

a reply to: JUhrman

1 Corinthians 15:33
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Where you can name a few things, I would name the entirety of the American culture as being secular. The American Dream, one of our core principles, the spirit of our nation, is about as secular as it gets, and we're all forced to believe it.

originally posted by: JUhrman
a reply to: undo

If you got a better word than fundamentalism to be used to discuss the specific type of Christian faiths gaining strength in the US among some protestants since the 19th century, I'm open to any suggestion.

If you don't like the term or think I'm making generalizations solely by trying to understand why they evolved so differently than other Christian Churches, I'm sorry because it's not my objective.

allow me to rephrase -- evangelical christianity in the united states has not changed a bit, other than to perhaps get a bit less fundie about their fundamentalism. by that i mean, they've grown to accept laws they disagree with "religiously" because they are admonished to do so in the text of the new testament - render unto caesar what is caesar's due, but render unto god, what is god's due. and etc. i think what's happening as well, people who can vote, are starting to pay attention to how their votes effect their environment. this is just as true for fundies as it is for anyone else.

if you want to be worried about something, check out "dominionism." now that's scary. not because it doesn't sound like a christian utopia of sorts, but because it assumes that we humans can actually pull off a reasonable approximation of a godly government and to enact laws to enforce that, which is a very bad idea. the melting pot that is america, is a much better idea, primarily because it keeps unbridled bossiness over whether you eat cheerios or fish on friday, and etc, at a reasonable level.

a reply to: undo

Render unto Caesar should be understood that nothing belongs to Caesar, and everything is God's. Jesus said it as he did because he knew they were trying to accuse him... You cannot serve God and mammon.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: undo

Render unto Caesar should be understood that nothing belongs to Caesar, and everything is God's. Jesus said it as he did because he knew they were trying to accuse him... You cannot serve God and mammon.

mmn, that's a stretch.

a reply to: undo

I hear you, OK, so instead of fundamentalism I should say that Evangelicalism is the name of this movement that saw (mainly in the US) the increase in the literal interpretation of the Bible, and such scary ideas like dominionism.

Evangelicalism started around the 18th century.

So is Evangelicalism the main reason why some part of the Christian faith in the US evolved to become what I can't relate to ? (mega-churches, televangelism, faith healing, rejection of some scientific discoveries, biblical literalism). Because I certainly can't find similar things here outside of anecdotal occurences.

originally posted by: JUhrman
a reply to: undo

I hear you, OK, so instead of fundamentalism I should say that Evangelicalism is the name of this movement that saw (mainly in the US) the increase in the literal interpretation of the Bible, and such scary ideas like dominionism.

Evangelicalism started around the 18th century.

So is Evangelicalism the main reason why some part of the Christian faith in the US evolved to become what I can't relate to ? (mega-churches, televangelism, faith healing, rejection of some scientific discoveries, biblical literalism). Because I certainly can't find similar things here outside of anecdotal occurences.

evangelicals have always rejected some scientific discoveries. evangelicals have always numbered amongst them, faith healers. and there are just as many evangelicals that don't believe in faith healing, as those who do. baptists for example, believe in the power of prayer but not in faith healing events. they believe things like tongues were isolated to the dispensation (time frame) during and immediately following the pentecost and then ended not long after, if not right after the ending of pentecost. mega church sizes came about because small churches were being driven out of business by cost of living increases - not enough of their members could afford to defray the costs via tithing. the only way churches appear to survive today, is by incorporation, and a greater sampling of members.

also, church buildings and christianity, are actually two different things, since the actual church is the people themselves, not the buildings.