If There Were No Consciousness What Would Be The Point Of Material Existence?

originally posted by: Aphorism
There already is no such thing as consciousness. In every medical, psychological or neuroscientific setting, "consciousness" is determined by viewing, interacting with, and experimenting on the human organism, and not something called "consciousness".

Just because science struggles to define consciousness properly, doesn't mean consciousness does not exist. And consciousness is not only determined "by viewing, interacting and experimenting on human organisms". Consciousness is experienced by all sentient creatures - not only those that can communicate their thoughts and feelings in a manner which humans can understand.

originally posted by: PhotonEffect
Awareness, as a function of consciousness, is an interesting property of matter. I find myself falling into the rabbit hole when I think about it..

What is awareness exactly? And being self aware? Is there a point to it?

Existence, in some part, requires conscious confirmation, doesn't it? We have the benefit of existence (hindsight) to be able to assert that all matter exists independently of consciousness.

However, if consciousness was never created in the first place then how can such a statement be made?

Or

If you were the only conscious thing in all of the universe and no other matter existed, then how do you confirm your existence?

Awareness is consciousness, to be aware of others besides oneself and how we affect them is conscience. Every living thing has consciousness of some sort, though conscious "awareness" requires knowledge of a self and other, some animals can empathize with other through self and other... this is the conscience.

Everyone's conscious awareness and conscience is different due to being conscious and having varied experiences with the other. The other taught us what good and bad was, we learned the concept by some association. How did you first learn bad? Was it through something you did, or from what someone else did? This makes a difference in what we associate bad with... it can be ourselves, others or both. But it the concept doesn't stop there does it? The concept of bad, grows and matures as we experience it. Something once thought bad can be now good and vice versa... good and bad are both extremes of experience, they can either grow impatience to experience again or reluctance to ever experience again, limiting our experience of the concept of good and bad which cuts of wisdom of the concept once a choice has been made, that somethin is good or bad.

We think the concept of good and bad is something is external, oh, this is bad, that is bad, he or she is bad, No... nothing or no one is good or bad in and of it self, good or bad is a dependent arising of ones own or from another's past experience that we have adopted as truth. Even though we can say "computer" and we can attribute all these ideas and concepts, as to what a computer is to us as an individual or accept what it is as a group... it still has no bearing on what it does and how it functions, unless we wish to change it in some manner from what it does when we interact with it. has the calculator ceased to be a computer now that we have wifi and cat videos? nope, just our concept has changed not the computer in its basic function of power on and off is the 1's and 0's... that's all it is flipping the light switch on and off consistently to produce the desired effect... good or evil impossible,

the sub conscious stores all of these experience impressions, into a conscious reflex like a short cut. if you see a fire you dont have to think its hot dont touch it, the subconscious has all the fire experience tucked away and signals a sort of full system memory of them combined so one can react to it based on these impressions... but ultimately fire is neither good nor bad.

thats all this crap is that we have floating around in conscious thought is, unused bits we have yet to file away, bits we access from the past to plan for the future, and an awareness of our suffering and attempt to ease it in some manner, change position, scratch, etc. as well as survival needs eating to stop hunger etc., the development of language just allowed us to share this crap floating around within our conscious to help make some meaning, share some meaning to help us decide where to file it and how we might to react to it in the future.

the importance in any of the things your conscious awareness or conscious thought falls on is left up to you based on your conscience of self and other and how something may effect oneself, another, or both. to be honest, the only crap floating around in our heads, that is worth a crap, is what keeps us physically alive day to day. Air, food, removal of waste, and shelter from the elements that protect our survival, and breeding to keep the species going. The early "ape" us was content with that for who knows how long? Now, what does it take for us to be content based on the rules, and suggestions of society? not so simple to be content anymore since everyone learned concepts in their own way based on experience and outer influence is it? chase or live any existence that you don't really need but think you want, can bring way more problems and troubles than the experience of them is worth... we all die and as short as life is perceptually, most 20 somethings wont get that... to get to age 20 seems like 40 years and from age 20 to 40 it seems like 5 years.

So, struggle fight and argue over these conscious bits we share our experiences and the ideals we all subconsciously react too for animal instinct reflexes? is not needed at all. so instead they are used against us so we maintain society through behavioral training taught by peers to maintain it.

nothing special, but it means everything to humanity.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: MissSmartypants
It's a hard concept to wrap your mind around...if there were no life in the universe and only inanimate material objects interacting with each other what would be the point of existence? Is a point or purpose even necessary? What say you, ATS?

To expand on that, according to current quantum theory, without an observer, the universe technically would not exist. As without an observer to collapse the wave function, the "universe" would simply exist as a wave of probability until something/someone finally observes it.

What if the observers that "observe" everything are no long with us, and have been replaced by damaged lifeforms that keep up the charade until someone finds the way back to the first wave.

Or better yet, do not care that everything is slowly degrading, and so have even destroyed the ability of the observers to turn away, a total delusion across every plain, if you may.

This looks like hell, and it is very real , and could easily become all that remains, forever slowly worsening, all because the original programming has been damaged.

originally posted by: ParasuvO


What if the observers that "observe" everything are no long with us, and have been replaced by damaged lifeforms that keep up the charade until someone finds the way back to the first wave.

In this moment you are the observer. Can you be 100% sure that there is another observer??
You know that you are knowing this present appearance don't you??
You can only know what appears..........you cannot be sure that what seems to be appearing is observing.

That which is seen now appears to be seen. Can the seer be seen?

The observer is always here, even in deep sleep when there is nothing.
There are no things at all in deep sleep and then the light comes on.

oops wrong thread

a reply to: FormOfTheLord
Are you sure you posted in the right thread?

a reply to: ParasuvO
All that appears is eternally being 'destroyed' because no thing could be new, no thing could be 'created' if the old stayed.
Things that appear are eternally changing, moving, morphing........ really there are no solid things anyway.
Ice seems to be solid but it is in a constant state of flux - it could be said to be water really but it is not water either because it can be steam....so really it is not any thing in particular.
So the scene that is seen is constantly changing and morphing................what never changes or morphs is the observer.
You are the never changing witness of the ever changing scene.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Are you sure you posted in the right thread?

oops my bad good catch

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

You assume there is a creator. I necessarily, do not.

a reply to: ImaFungi

true
so consciousness created matter to observe it.

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

aha, I didn't read your post before I posted


but would a creator need to ponder his own creation?

Only if he gave it free will

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

You assume there is a creator. I necessarily, do not.

you create

originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

aha, I didn't read your post before I posted

but would a creator need to ponder his own creation?

Only if he gave it free will

I addressed that earlier. If our Creator hadn't created us with free will He would have just been making copies of His self...which isn't actually creating something new...only reformulating an already existing God. Free will keeps things interesting and keeps the process of creation going on.

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

aha, I didn't read your post before I posted

but would a creator need to ponder his own creation?

Only if he gave it free will

I addressed that earlier. If our Creator hadn't created us with free will He would have just been making copies of His self...which isn't actually creating something new...only reformulating an already existing God. Free will keeps things interesting and keeps the process of creation going on.

very cool

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

You assume there is a creator. I necessarily, do not.

That's OK. I'll wait for you to catch up. But seriously, do you then feel that something emerged from nothing? Or what exactly?

originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi

Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.

The very thing that some wish to eliminate.

But equally the most important thing is non conscious stuff... A ying yang of sorts. Consciousness needs non conscious stuff, to be made of, and to make with...to be conscious of. And the risky and sketchy statement; non 'consciousness' 'needs' consciousness, because via consciousness is the only way to ever have existing 'point', meaning, purpose, function, knowing, doing,... being.

So the Creator had to create to have something to ponder.

aha, I didn't read your post before I posted

but would a creator need to ponder his own creation?

Only if he gave it free will

I addressed that earlier. If our Creator hadn't created us with free will He would have just been making copies of His self...which isn't actually creating something new...only reformulating an already existing God. Free will keeps things interesting and keeps the process of creation going on.

very cool

Well, you're awesome. And thanks for your contributions to this thread.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

aw, thank you

a reply to: MissSmartypants

It's not a hard concept really when you remember without consciousness there'd be nothing to conceptualise.

There doesn't have to be a point...especially if there's nothing to consider the point.