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And that's probably exactly what God was thinking when He came up with the idea of creating the physical universe.
originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: MissSmartypants
i have a better question- if the material world did not exist - what would be the point of conciousness ?
...if the material world did not exist - what would be the point of conciousness?
There are those who believe the mind exists outside the human body and the brain is a receiver which we use to access our mind...with the mind probably being constructed of quantum energy and perhaps quantum entanglement keeps our mind quanta connected.to each other after our physical death. And we may from time to time access data from previous lives or perhaps from a general mind pool.
And the struggle of humanity is the consciousness trying to corral the animal it lives within.
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
a reply to: elysiumfireOf course the physical universe would still exist even if no consciousness had ever developed....but...if nothing, absolutely nothing was aware of it, does it really exist? Or could the interaction of the wave forms and the resulting reactions be a type of proto awareness?
And I believe we are still a part of that original consciousness, a sort of fractal.
originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi
Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.
The very thing that some wish to eliminate.
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
Again in quantum physics the observer or ear in this case doesn't have to be human or animal. Anything that the sound waves have an effect on, air for example, "hears" the sound.
originally posted by: Blarneystoner
a reply to: Aphorism
Ok... all of those definitions require an ear to hear.... if there is no ear to hear... there is no sound... only vibrations (interference patterns)
So if sound waves break a glass does that count as observation?
originally posted by: TheJourney
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
Again in quantum physics the observer or ear in this case doesn't have to be human or animal. Anything that the sound waves have an effect on, air for example, "hears" the sound.
originally posted by: Blarneystoner
a reply to: Aphorism
Ok... all of those definitions require an ear to hear.... if there is no ear to hear... there is no sound... only vibrations (interference patterns)
It's true that the observer doesn't have to be human or animal. It's not true that any'thing' which interacts with it is the observer. An observer can be mechanical, like a camera. But some sort of structure has to be imposed onto the waves. Observation is imposed structure. You can't speak at all of sound-waves affecting 'different objects' without imposed structure. Somehow, something has to capture it from a specific, structured vantage point. That is the observation. Not merely interaction.
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
So if sound waves break a glass does that count as observation?
originally posted by: TheJourney
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
Again in quantum physics the observer or ear in this case doesn't have to be human or animal. Anything that the sound waves have an effect on, air for example, "hears" the sound.
originally posted by: Blarneystoner
a reply to: Aphorism
Ok... all of those definitions require an ear to hear.... if there is no ear to hear... there is no sound... only vibrations (interference patterns)
It's true that the observer doesn't have to be human or animal. It's not true that any'thing' which interacts with it is the observer. An observer can be mechanical, like a camera. But some sort of structure has to be imposed onto the waves. Observation is imposed structure. You can't speak at all of sound-waves affecting 'different objects' without imposed structure. Somehow, something has to capture it from a specific, structured vantage point. That is the observation. Not merely interaction.
;Would Roger Penrose's microtubules be that mechanism?
originally posted by: elysiumfire
ignorant_ape:
...if the material world did not exist - what would be the point of conciousness?
Or, an even more succinct question...how could consciousness emerge if there is no material structure in which it could do so?
MissSmartypants:
There are those who believe the mind exists outside the human body and the brain is a receiver which we use to access our mind...with the mind probably being constructed of quantum energy and perhaps quantum entanglement keeps our mind quanta connected.to each other after our physical death. And we may from time to time access data from previous lives or perhaps from a general mind pool.
I have a different perspective on mind, and believe it to be distinct from consciousness. The best way I can state this perspective is that we do not have a mind that is conscious, but a conscious state we perceive as mind. All our thoughts and thinking have to be looped back into the brain as stimulations in order for us to perceive them...how else could we be self-aware?
I cannot accept a disembodied consciousness, because I believe consciousness to be an emergent phenomenon, and can only arise within a structure of some kind in which it can emerge. Mind is not a structure, it is (imho) a quale of perceiving being conscious. Neither mind or consciousness are containers of anything. The former is a mental mirage, whereas the latter is entirely comprised of the emergent resonance I wrote about in an earlier post. That resonance is a real energy, carrying full information about the interaction that brought it into being...energy level, wavelength, and frequency, everything a system capable of being stimulated needs to give both a visual and aural experience.
Consciousness has to be thought of in gestalt terms. The body's senses are distinct from one another, but all come together, energetically and informationally, within the ordering system of the brain. The physical body has more than the known five senses, seventeen I believe at the last count, most of them deal with internal stimulations relaying information about the body, which is where we get our sense of body image from, The five well-known senses relate us to our external environment, so the brain has to process informational energy from the outside and also from within our bodies to provide us with the ordered experience of being alive, and it all comes from the capture of quanta. Consciousness is the wave field of all the quanta that stimulated us, switching 'on' and 'off' many times a second. Quanta, of course, carry and relay all the information of the natural world.
The most most profound puzzle we can work out is how all that quanta is transposed by the brain into the familiar qualia-rich experience of being alive? Once we answer that question, we will cognize our true origins...and God will not be in the equation.
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
And I believe we are still a part of that original consciousness, a sort of fractal.
originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ImaFungi
Interesting, that the most important thing in the universe is being conscious of the universe.
The very thing that some wish to eliminate.
originally posted by: MissSmartypants
I'll be doing some reading and pondering tonight. Thanks for your input.
originally posted by: Blarneystoner
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
I think the answer is "no".