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If There Were No Consciousness What Would Be The Point Of Material Existence?

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posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 02:57 AM
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originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi
There would be no purpose, there can only be purpose with 'an awareness' that can 'be' 'aware' of 'purpose'. Most likely do to the nature of material, energy, time, and being, the awarenesses most direct purpose, will be to do what is necessary to maintain aware. Reality is a genius. I dont know how many times it had to try, or how many times its succeeded, but somehow, some hows, it has formulated into this massive systems of planets and stars, the planets of which have formulated on them, material conglomerations of consciousness. To be or not to be. If eternally it was promised that there would never have been and never be any single consciousness ever, then nothing would ever be known, or done, or felt, etc. It is pure wonderful splendor and inspirational graciousness, that reality is so perfect as to create such the formulation to allow, not only one or two conscious entities to exist, but quintillions, and not only can they play simple games and not only are they more advancly constructed than of stick figures, but they can do everything you have ever known humans and animals to do, and much much more.
Yes but would there be a thing or an entity that would be aware of the universe if life would never exist?


According to the stipulation of your question, you answer yourself; If there were no consciousness, there would be no consciousness (thing or entity aware).




posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 03:02 AM
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originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The point/purpose is actualizing/experiencing potential. The point is everything that is possible to do that you would not be able to do/experience if you did not exist. This is the obvious motivation, point, purpose, of being.
I was just thinking about you as you were posting. Gotta love that synchronicity. And "actualizing potential", I like that and plan to ponder it some more. Thx.


Stuff exists. Without mind/consciousness, stuff just exists, and obeys the physical laws. Consciousness is a (VERY) complex system of stuff that exists, that can become aware of a lot of the ways in which stuff exists, to know the causal relationships, the physical laws of cause and effect which rule the physical stuff, that is consciousness being aware of potential. From a state of non moving, you are aware that it is physically possible for you to move, and thus, you as a conscious being, are responsible for the way you interact with the stuff that exists, and your and its potential. Responsible as in, responsible for doing what is necessary to remain alive, or...I dont know what else, anything you feel like I guess; only real law is suffer the consequences of your actions. As for Gods and demons and other realms, I dont have enough information to state or speculate anything about it.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 03:05 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The point/purpose is actualizing/experiencing potential. The point is everything that is possible to do that you would not be able to do/experience if you did not exist. This is the obvious motivation, point, purpose, of being.


This is the purpose we give to living, certainly. Because we are purpose driven. Without purpose, our ego lacks an anchor of identity.

Since experiences are, ahem....experiential, it would seem that it could all boil down to the eye of the beholder. But its an unprovable assertion.


No, what I stated is not what we give to ourselves, but what the truth gives to us. I am being very general and vague on purpose because that is the point of what I am getting at, the general but extreme and exact difference between not being at all, and being at all. The difference is quite obvious. The point of being, is that nothing can ever be done or known or felt or experienced, if there is no being/if one is not being. Being is the ultimate, primal, highest value, and as such, is reflected in all the systems and houses of cards built on top of it.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 03:12 AM
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originally posted by: booyakasha


It is impossible for the physical reality to exist with out consciousness to observe it.


False. This statement of yours is entirely due to your consciousness wanting to feel special. If your consciousness wanted to know the truth more than it had the need to want to feel special, it would clearly see that reality exists, that consciousness is a part of reality, and that consciousness is more ephemeral than physical reality. Physical reality exists, eternally. Via time; physical reality transforming; we have arrive at the present orientation of reality; which when it was ripe, millions of year ago, started formulating consciousness, if all the consciousness of earth was wiped out, physical reality would still exist, if all consciousness in the universe were to be wiped out, physical reality, the universe, would still exist. Objectivity is the emperor/empire, subjectivity is the king, at times, the peasant.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 06:54 AM
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booyakasha:

It is impossible for the physical reality to exist with out consciousness to observe it.


ImaFungi:

False.


'ImaFungi' is quite correct in his response to 'booyakasha', material and physical reality do indeed exist independent of an observer, because all the many different kinds of energy interactions taking place everywhere, throughout the universe is what links and maintains everything with existence.

The moon does not disappear when you are not looking at it, its existence is entirely predicated on other independent phenomena interacting with it...energy interaction is the 'observer'.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 07:43 AM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
... Things like Photosythesis point towards a design, rather than a random occurrence.

Are you suggesting the appearance of photosynthesising organisms which poisoned most of the other life on Earth with oxygen, was designed ? ...


wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event wrote :
Free oxygen is toxic to obligate anaerobic organisms, and the rising concentrations may have wiped out most of the Earth's anaerobic inhabitants at the time. [photosynthesising] Cyanobacteria were therefore responsible for one of the most significant extinction events in Earth's history.

edit on 31-12-2014 by Takifugu because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 08:59 AM
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MissSmartypants:

If There Were No Consciousness What Would Be The Point Of Material Existence?


In conscious human terms, there does not seem to be a point at all, no rhyme or reason to detect. Your question, I would infer, revolves around the supposition of two thoughts; a) that consciousness somehow creates material reality, or b) that material reality is the medium in which consciousness emerges?

The 'observer' concept would opt for the former, but I myself opt for the latter. All existence, in whatever shape, size and form, whether material or seemingly immaterial is entirely predicated on energy interaction. The difference between observance and non-observance is that which we can know, but for us to gain knowledge about things we observe, there has to be a linking aspect between observer and that which is observed. There has to be an interaction between the two, an exchange of something.

It is my opinion that consciousness emerges out of the energy interaction, which would explain the reason for the false dichotomy of observer-created reality and the veracity of independent observable reality. Consciousness does not create anything, it is simply a 'state of condition' in the organism, the 'light' in the bulb when electricity is allowed to flow through it. Because consciousness is simply a state of condition in the organism, it is entirely passive and wholly unintentional and purposeless.

Consciousness cannot create a particle or any other form of quanta simply by thinking about it, but that is what observer-created reality thinkers believe. Consciousness does not organise reality into the experience we perceive, it is in fact so intimately linked that it is part of the experience, not outside of it. It emerges within it.

The reality we are able to observe and interact with, exists independently to us. It doesn't need consciousness to exist, but only to be known. There is a mechanism by which the conscious state is induced in the organism, and that mechanism is energy interaction. I shall briefly illustrate what I mean.

Suppose we have two independent waveforms separated by a certain distance so that they cannot interact with each other. As far as these two waveforms are concerned the other does not exist. Each waveform is vibrating at its lowest energy state, its rest phase. At some other vector point, which each waveform is equally unaware of, a disturbance occurs in the field, and ripples out from its centre as a propagating energy wave. As this energy wave approaches our two independent waveforms it forces them towards each other, setting up a chain reaction of events.

The wave fields of each waveform begin to interact with the other. The closer they are pushed towards one another, the greater and stronger the interaction. Each waveform is suddenly 'jolted' out of rest phase and into a higher state of excitation, but also take on the characteristic of being a particle. Where the energy is densest within each waveform's parameter, there is the particle characteristic. Each waveform, now exhibiting wave/particle duality, undergo discrete energy level jumps as each assimilates energy from the passing energy wave and from the other waveform. Out of this interaction a resonance emerges as a sum of the interaction. I believe that it is this resonance that is the energy that induces the conscious state in the organism.

This resonance only lasts as long as the interaction taking place that brought it into being, and is also occurring within the very fabric of our physical structure. When the energy wave passes, the two waveforms drop the wave/particle duality and return back to rest phase. Wave/particle duality is a consequence of the law that independent waveforms cannot influence or interact with each other directly, only by their wave fields. Waveforms contract into particles when influenced by other waveforms and propagating energy waves. One other influencing factor is the waveform's energy level and frequency. Unless waveforms are within certain frequencies of each other, no interaction will take place, but that one waveform will ride the existence of another out-of-phase waveform like a piece of debris on the surface of an ocean, without any interaction or energy exchange taking place. This is how fundamental dimensions are produced, and with it, space and spatiality, filled with independent objects of existence.

Waveforms exist at the 2D level. When they take on the aspect of wave/particle duality, it creates 3 dimensions. It logically follows that because interactions and energy exchanges are occurring everywhere in the same instance and overlapping each other throughout the universe billions of times per unit second, independent 3D reality maintains an existence, regardless of the presence or absence of consciousness.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 09:30 AM
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a reply to: elysiumfireOf course the physical universe would still exist even if no consciousness had ever developed....but...if nothing, absolutely nothing was aware of it, does it really exist? Or could the interaction of the wave forms and the resulting reactions be a type of proto awareness?


edit on 12/31/2014 by MissSmartypants because: info



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 09:32 AM
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What is the point anyway? Our molecules form electrical communications that relate to our physical environment.

So what?



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 09:33 AM
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a reply to: MissSmartypantsAnd you guys are awesome by the way.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: Jamie1
What is the point anyway? Our molecules form electrical communications that relate to our physical environment.

So what?
I think the concept of being self aware is worthy of contemplation, so I care.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 02:01 PM
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I love these discussions. I always get a new perspective.

I like it when the tough question are asked even though there may not be an answer. MissSmartypants has already stated that it really boils down to one question -Did the Universe give rise to Consciousness? Or did Consciousness give rise to the Universe?

One of the great philosophical discussions of the Socratic dialogues (Meno) written by Plato, centered around the quest for "The Nature of Virtue". Essentially, the problem was to know what Virtue actually is? How can you know if you have found it when you don't know what it is? Known as "Meno's Paradox"


Meno: And how are you going to search for [the nature of virtue] when you don't know at all what it is, Socrates? Which of all the things you don't know will you set up as target for your search? And even if you actually come across it, how will you know that it is that thing which you don't know?
- Wikipedia

In Phaedo, Plato develops his theory of anamnesis.


The body and its senses are the source of error; knowledge can only be regained through the use of our reason, contemplating things with the soul (noesis)
- Wikipedia


Anamnesis is a concept in Plato's epistemological and psychological theory that he develops in his dialogues Meno and Phaedo, and alludes to in his Phaedrus.

It is the idea that humans possess knowledge from past incarnations and that learning consists of rediscovering that knowledge within us.


My personal thought is that the knowledge doesn't come from past incarnations, but from our higher self which is the source of consciousness. That "higher self is tapped into the universal consciousness.

Modern science is beginning to discover the physical mechanisms by which this consciousness is made available to us.... Bio-Photon activity, Quantum Mind Theory, etc...

Here's an interesting article related to the topic.... physicists find evidence that universe is conscious

Best of luck in your quest MissSmartypants. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step....

edit on 31-12-2014 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-12-2014 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 02:07 PM
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MissSmartypants:

...but...if nothing, absolutely nothing was aware of it, does it really exist? Or could the interaction of the wave forms and the resulting reactions be a type of proto awareness?


Always remember that awareness has nothing to do with the existence of anything, it only has to do with what can be known with regard to whatever exists.

The interaction of waveforms and the reactives emerging from the interactions does indeed provide for the foundational basis of awareness. Of course, it all depends on the system in which awareness, whether rudimentary or complex, emerges. The more complex the system, the more defined towards sentient being it is. All life has awareness in some form, it can be very simple and limited in certain organisms, but reaches its most complex and whole in mankind and other mammals.

Currently, I do not accept that consciousness continues after death, once the physical human body can no longer sustain the mental construct of entity we each uniquely become from birth to adulthood. Nevertheless, it does not stop me searching for a plausible answer, because I have suspicions and intuitions that nature is all geared-up to allow for post-mortem consciousness? That the physical human body is nothing more than an incubator for the entity in which mind develops and matures so that it becomes equipped to deal with the environment we might find ourselves after we physically die? I have questions I need to answer before I can accept this.



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 02:29 PM
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Blarneystoner:

...the problem was to know what Virtue actually is?


The issue regarding 'virtue' is that it is not an independent reality, but a human mental construct of quantitative quality. That is to say, all virtues are meant to have a defined 'goodness' of quality about them. That there is worth in possessing as many virtues as possible. For instance, temperance, justice, courage, and prudence are all Platonic virtues carrying human esteem.

Of course, this all thread carries with it epistemological questions. The question can be asked of me, in respect of what I have contributed to the thread, how do I know these things, and how do I know them to be true facts? The answer is, I don't, and don't claim them as facts, only that they are based in scientific empirical observations, and the use of reason and logic. As long as one is true to oneself, and to the subject one is studying, nature will never display malice and withhold her secrets.

A happy new year to one and all. Best wishes to 2015.

edit on 31/12/14 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2014 @ 02:36 PM
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a reply to: elysiumfire

I feel you man....

The example from Meno is just an example of the problems one faces when asking these types of questions, not meant to be an answer to the questions.



As long as one is true to oneself, and to the subject one is studying, nature will never display malice and withhold her secrets.


...which is essentially the very definition of Anamnesis.
edit on 31-12-2014 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:11 AM
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a reply to: MissSmartypants

For all we know, there is only consciousness.

It's hard to even ask a question unless we know what the case is to some extent.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:18 AM
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a reply to: MissSmartypants

i have a better question- if the material world did not exist - what would be the point of conciousness ?



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 07:25 AM
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originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: MissSmartypants

i have a better question- if the material world did not exist - what would be the point of conciousness ?


Consciousness is of the material world. Be careful of semantics when using words, always.

Tautologically, due to the fact that energy cannot be destroyed it can be said that; That which exists, is that which exists. Reality always equals itself.

Unless one wants to be very humanely artificially arbitrary, and say; The largest distinction that can be made is between; That in which some way exists, and that which does not exist at all (nothing). Therefore everything that ever can possibly exist, requires, what I thought was the agreed meaning of the term material, as in, that which exists.

Material is that which exists. Is there 'some thing' that exists potentially that is not material? Why would you not refer to this 'some thing' as material? This is pure, arbitrary semantics, and not absolute truth.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 11:39 AM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
MissSmartypants:

...but...if nothing, absolutely nothing was aware of it, does it really exist? Or could the interaction of the wave forms and the resulting reactions be a type of proto awareness?


Always remember that awareness has nothing to do with the existence of anything, it only has to do with what can be known with regard to whatever exists.

The interaction of waveforms and the reactives emerging from the interactions does indeed provide for the foundational basis of awareness. Of course, it all depends on the system in which awareness, whether rudimentary or complex, emerges. The more complex the system, the more defined towards sentient being it is. All life has awareness in some form, it can be very simple and limited in certain organisms, but reaches its most complex and whole in mankind and other mammals.

Currently, I do not accept that consciousness continues after death, once the physical human body can no longer sustain the mental construct of entity we each uniquely become from birth to adulthood. Nevertheless, it does not stop me searching for a plausible answer, because I have suspicions and intuitions that nature is all geared-up to allow for post-mortem consciousness? That the physical human body is nothing more than an incubator for the entity in which mind develops and matures so that it becomes equipped to deal with the environment we might find ourselves after we physically die? I have questions I need to answer before I can accept this.
There are those who believe the mind exists outside the human body and the brain is a receiver which we use to access our mind...with the mind probably being constructed of quantum energy and perhaps quantum entanglement keeps our mind quanta connected.to each other after our physical death. And we may from time to time access data from previous lives or perhaps from a general mind pool. Don't know.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: Blarneystonerthank you for your input. Your posts are the ones that most mirror my own thoughts on the matter... only more eloquent and more informed than mine. Happy New Years to you.



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