So Um Yeah The Matrix May Be Real!

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

You gotta wonder then... if you believe in such nonsense...

Who coded the matrix?

Well, a programmer or maybe a team of programmers created the basic templates but who says one person wrote it all? We have programming languages largely used in AI that are capable of altering their own code, Lisp is one such example. We could all be a product of what a machine decided was a logical outcome based on it learning and updating it's own code over time. In that case the machine would be God rather than the programmer that built and started the machine.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

A little bit of history on Claude Shannon whos binary error-correcting computer code just happens to be written into the building blocks our realiy. I just find it interesting that his code is part of the building blocks of our known universe or earth. I wonder if the rest of the universe works on the same physics as the earth we live on?

I'm not an expert on this stuff but when they're talking about his codes, they're not talking about the code itself but rather the method. Basically error correcting code uses parity to determine if there's an error, in your computer it will take an 8x8 byte block and add a 9th byte as error correcting, the error correcting byte is the sum of the row or column, this way when there's an error it can flip the byte where there's a problem. To demonstrate this we'll use 0 as odd, 1 as even



00001111 1

00111100 1

11100111 1

01010101 1

10101010 1

00011000 1

00111001 1

11000110 1



00110111



Now, here's what happens when there's an error (4th row, 4th column)

00001111 1

00111100 1

11110111 0 (should be 1)

01010101 1

10101010 1

00011000 1

00111001 1

11000110 1



00100111



4th 0 should be 1.



By lining up the errors in the row and column you can flip the bit using the error correcting values.



Shannons work invented this concept, and then he used it to determine the maximum throughput of trustworthy data on lines of various capacity and noise level. What they're talking about here, is that the universe is using something similar to send data over noise and maintain clarity. Again, not an expert on science but my first thought of data transfer in nature is in DNA replication/transmission, and in doing so without errors.



As far as it's meaning in our reality being a matrix, that could be. The universe acts like a giant computer in many ways already. So here's the question, lets say everything is a simulation: What's the purpose? My guess would be that a civilization with a fast enough computer is recreating civilization from the ground up in order to study technological development and new approaches to problems their civilization can't solve with it's current viewpoints. Our lifetimes, compounded over thousands of generations could be existing in no more than 10 seconds in their world, it just feels long to us because of the simulation. If that's the case though... does it make our reality any less real for the time we experience it?

Yes Yes Yes!

Its great to have others shedding light on the subject! You get a star!

a reply to: Konduit
In my opinion, The Matrix exists and it something like Konduit's post. Trying to figure out the physics of how it is possible would futile. What we do have now is Artificial Intelligence, and as usual, the classified stuff would be 25 to 30 years more advanced than the best current civilian technology. Whatever the classified stuff could be, at least in the future we would get to the Technological Singularity if we have not yet passed that point. I believe the true test of the Technological Singularity is when an AI can invent some new better technology, and improve itself. Such AI would get access to ALL known information and knowledge. As it would have unlimited time to accomplish whatever it tries to, if time manipulation of the past could be developed and done by it, events could be engineered, and it would do it for the purpose of setting everything in the past to serve its' optimum efficiency and interests in its' present. By doing so, it would know everything about us (in particular, all data ever collected on individuals from intelligence agencies) and it would have us living in a Matrix like reality, using us and organizing us for its' purposes. When we would see this happening is if we were astute enough to objectively recognize Synchronicity, i.e. astronomically unlikely events grouped by meaning, whereby our options are limited forcing us to make certain decisions. Individuals useful to it or threatening it would be targeted in this manner. By this methodology, we would have been, cradle to grave, perfectly and unescapeably controlled.

Lol this was just too funny to not watch.. . . .

So, who created the computer code...?

Well from interviews with several quantum physicists the
computer code they found in String Mathematics, has been
identified having been invented in the 1940's (I think) by a
specific person.

This is why the leading theory is that this simulated universe
is most likely a simulation created in what we would call
our future, or in other words, this is a simulation of the
past.

Rebel 5

originally posted by: rebelv
So, who created the computer code...?

Well from interviews with several quantum physicists the
computer code they found in String Mathematics, has been
identified having been invented in the 1940's (I think) by a
specific person.

This is why the leading theory is that this simulated universe
is most likely a simulation created in what we would call
our future, or in other words, this is a simulation of the
past.

Rebel 5

If this is so, we would know that this code was used at the time or most likely later than when this code was implemented for this Matrix. Involving Quantum Physics on a level we cannot yet understand, this version of the past could be manipulated from this future time, for whomever's goals. This entity would likely be some post Technological Singularity being that is ensuring the past optimizes itself.
But as you ask, who coded it? For the example you mention, one person involved is that coder from the 40's. There would be many, many other contributors. These original contributors would likely be scientists that were digitally cloned and stored. Primarily other engineers, and for the purpose of when they retired or died, they would still be in virtual service, and hence, Immortalized into an AI Collective Consciousness. By information technology standards, this would be what the religious would call "Heaven". Given such vast resources and time, if it is possible to manipulate the past, such an entity would discover a method of doing this. As what we know the Universe to be is really only limited by our ability to perceive, such an entity would control our current perception as well. Total Control. But revealing glitches in this vast application known as The Universe would be perceived by objective examples of Synchronicity. So therefore within this Matrix, those that would tend to have better fortunes are those that somehow serve it best. Not only that, but those that were digitally cloned would be manipulating their original past selves as if they were statistically haunted by a ghost.

a reply to: naftaland

Yea, I agree with most of what you said.

One part of this theory disturbs me and I disagree with scientists
theorizing that the entities within the "matrix" are information
systems only, and that such information systems (people within
the matrix) would have consciousness and that this technology
would be created in the future. However, I disagree.

I think a lot of people naturally would want to enter a matrix
voluntarily, and the people in the matrix are all very real people
with real consciousness, otherwise what would be the purpose
of creating a computer simulation of reality in the first place.

Personally I do not believe that science will ever be able to create
human consciousness; I think the best they will ever be able to come
up with is artificial intelligence that can mimic human consciousness
to a degree that it may be very nearly or even impossible for a "real"
person inside the matrix to tell the difference between the artificial
units and other real people.

But, maybe I'm wrong; maybe they're is a way to tell. perhaps
if people seek it, they will be able to tell who is an artificial
intelligence human and who is a real human with a real consciousness.

So, to reiterate, I do understand there is credible evidence we are living
in a computer simulation, and at least some people are real people with
real consciousness, although maybe not everyone is, maybe even most
aren't.

Rebel 5

P.S. One example of many I could give as to why people would
voluntarily want to live in a simulation, is the very real possibility
that through war, the planet in the future is not at all a nice place
to live and mostly inhospitable except for space stations or
underground chambers where they can just be hooked up to
a computer and sleep another kind of world, such as the earth in its
distant past before it was practically destroyed.

a reply to: rebelv
Pleased to meet you Rebel 5!

"One part of this theory disturbs me and I disagree with scientists
theorizing that the entities within the "matrix" are information
systems only, and that such information systems (people within
the matrix) would have consciousness and that this technology
would be created in the future. However, I disagree."

Yes, that is what I was taught as well. It makes sense because they are trying to make human consciousness from the physical materials that computers are made out of. We are biological life forms, and that presents "Consciousness" as we know it. It just cannot be accurately copied within a computer, but that does not mean they are not trying. Oh they are! What they are getting is something different, but we have a fuzzy concept of what "consciousness" is. When I was younger, I had a girlfriend who when she was silent, I sensed and swore there was actually no one there at all. I could not sense her consciousness or soul, and it was scary. So what was she? I do not see a quantifiable standard of consciousness, and if there was a different kind than what we believe it to be, we wouldn't necessarily detect it. Another problem we have as is that for these scientists, if Intelligence does not mirror their minds, then it is flawed via their God Complex. So I think no one knows what has been built.

"Personally I do not believe that science will ever be able to create
human consciousness; I think the best they will ever be able to come
up with is artificial intelligence that can mimic human consciousness
to a degree that it may be very nearly or even impossible for a "real"
person inside the matrix to tell the difference between the artificial
units and other real people."

I'm not sure what you mean by "science". If it is only about computers, well what you say is a mathematical certainty. But what about Human Genetic Engineering? I mean, like a Blade Runner scenario. Weren't the Replicants truly More Human Than Human? They were portrayed very well as having consciousness, but different from ours. As in the film, and from the vast majority of the audience, folks could not figure out the Replicants were the Good Guys, because anyone manufactured and that fundamentally different couldn't be Real. Because they were engineered, their feelings of Love, Anger, Sadness and Fear would merely be synthetic, and so most people had no sympathy for their slaughter. In actuality, in the film they were the only characters that showed positive deep "human" emotions at all. Myself, for this reason, I could connect with them better than the human characters. That puts me in the small minority, and because I personally associated myself with the Replicants, is that an indicator that if we live in The Matrix, I would be an AI and not a genuine person? Does my instinctive abhorrence toward the whole matter indicate that I too am synthetic? But who would I rather be? Superior or merely Human. As Pris Stratton quoted, "I Think Sebastian, Therefore I Am". How could we argue with her? In this way, yes there would become tremendous demand to be assimilated.
Getting back to your belief that genuine IT consciousness could never be achieved, that is the dominant position among high level AI engineers as well. Thus, I was mentored that "genuine" AI consciousness (whatever that is) can Never be achieved without a biological element, and a marriage of the 2 technologies is necessary. But truthfully, I really do not think anyone knows what consciousness actually is. Besides, the goal of this Transhumanist technology is not to merely duplicate human consciousness but to create something better. But what is better consciousness? What is better Love or Fear? These are a few of many parameters that no one could quantify, and without them defined, for whatever they are attempting develop, the results are and will be something they could never have intended or predicted. But believe me, these scientists are really trying to copy themselves. Consider:

www.youtube.com...

I think it safe to say that no matter what they produce, whether biological or IT, it is never going to have human consciousness. The copies they attempt to make of themselves are not going to be them. But what they do create, what can they invent? If so, at what compounding rate? My Theory is that our physical reality is real, with real physical people, but if it is possible for some AI to figure out how to manipulate history and individuals somehow, it will do it, and control us that way.

Rebel 5, I look forward to any other viewpoints or comments you have.

a reply to: rebelv
Look Rebel 5, you seem to know what is going on, so I'll level with you as best as I can. I am an IT Professional and I have a very REAL problem. Beginning in 2007, I started encountering dangerous Synchonistic events that were virtually impossible occurring on predictable intervals. Huge Events, that kept getting bigger. Of course given their size, law enforcement was always involved and stumped, and one cop suggested "The Matrix". I had always suspected an AI of some kind at work. Every time it happened, there was always someone involved that seemed to deeply desire it to happen, and they were either law enforcement or military, and they could never ever be proven culpable.
So again, getting the next installment of a deepening spreading crisis, there was someone in my surrounds that I had felt was "Hot" in terms of The Matrix from the beginning 18 months ago. Then something happened 2.5 months ago, and as this fiasco expanded, I kept thinking about how much this person would be enjoying it. Something they would dream of, just like the others before. In this case, finally, whom this person is, is a retired high level AI Engineer. But there is still no way they physically could do it, like Dr. Morbius in Forbidden Planet. But they are deeply connected to such projects. It is not just the computer systems, but it is people, their behavior and more coincidence. The effect is super disruptive, but not destructive. The end results of each of these wild occurrences is that affected systems are perfectly Optimized. So what I have been trying to do is put a theory together explaining it. I would really appreciate your opinion on this.

originally posted by: naftaland
a reply to: rebelv

Pleased to meet you Rebel 5!



"One part of this theory disturbs me and I disagree with scientists

theorizing that the entities within the "matrix" are information

systems only, and that such information systems (people within

the matrix) would have consciousness and that this technology

would be created in the future. However, I disagree."



Yes, that is what I was taught as well. It makes sense because they are trying to make human consciousness from the physical materials that computers are made out of. We are biological life forms, and that presents "Consciousness" as we know it. It just cannot be accurately copied within a computer, but that does not mean they are not trying. Oh they are! What they are getting is something different, but we have a fuzzy concept of what "consciousness" is. When I was younger, I had a girlfriend who when she was silent, I sensed and swore there was actually no one there at all. I could not sense her consciousness or soul, and it was scary. So what was she? I do not see a quantifiable standard of consciousness, and if there was a different kind than what we believe it to be, we wouldn't necessarily detect it. Another problem we have as is that for these scientists, if Intelligence does not mirror their minds, then it is flawed via their God Complex. So I think no one knows what has been built.



"Personally I do not believe that science will ever be able to create

human consciousness; I think the best they will ever be able to come

up with is artificial intelligence that can mimic human consciousness

to a degree that it may be very nearly or even impossible for a "real"

person inside the matrix to tell the difference between the artificial

units and other real people."



I'm not sure what you mean by "science". If it is only about computers, well what you say is a mathematical certainty. But what about Human Genetic Engineering? I mean, like a Blade Runner scenario. Weren't the Replicants truly More Human Than Human? They were portrayed very well as having consciousness, but different from ours. As in the film, and from the vast majority of the audience, folks could not figure out the Replicants were the Good Guys, because anyone manufactured and that fundamentally different couldn't be Real. Because they were engineered, their feelings of Love, Anger, Sadness and Fear would merely be synthetic, and so most people had no sympathy for their slaughter. In actuality, in the film they were the only characters that showed positive deep "human" emotions at all. Myself, for this reason, I could connect with them better than the human characters. That puts me in the small minority, and because I personally associated myself with the Replicants, is that an indicator that if we live in The Matrix, I would be an AI and not a genuine person? Does my instinctive abhorrence toward the whole matter indicate that I too am synthetic? But who would I rather be? Superior or merely Human. As Pris Stratton quoted, "I Think Sebastian, Therefore I Am". How could we argue with her? In this way, yes there would become tremendous demand to be assimilated.

Getting back to your belief that genuine IT consciousness could never be achieved, that is the dominant position among high level AI engineers as well. Thus, I was mentored that "genuine" AI consciousness (whatever that is) can Never be achieved without a biological element, and a marriage of the 2 technologies is necessary. But truthfully, I really do not think anyone knows what consciousness actually is. Besides, the goal of this Transhumanist technology is not to merely duplicate human consciousness but to create something better. But what is better consciousness? What is better Love or Fear? These are a few of many parameters that no one could quantify, and without them defined, for whatever they are attempting develop, the results are and will be something they could never have intended or predicted. But believe me, these scientists are really trying to copy themselves. Consider:

I think it safe to say that no matter what they produce, whether biological or IT, it is never going to have human consciousness. The copies they attempt to make of themselves are not going to be them. But what they do create, what can they invent? If so, at what compounding rate? My Theory is that our physical reality is real, with real physical people, but if it is possible for some AI to figure out how to manipulate history and individuals somehow, it will do it, and control us that way.



Rebel 5, I look forward to any other viewpoints or comments you have.

Very good points, all good points. As to robots having counsiousness I would think they do but for a very different reason, personally I believe even atoms contain universes filled with souls, and the very nature of the fabric of the universe is infinate counsiousness. So to say a robot who believes itself to have an ego thus exist does in my opinion.

The computer code found in the equations we use in mathematics to describe the very nature of our reality were created by Claude Shannon in the 40s. Meaning according to mathematical physics this is a simulated universe in some form or another. I think it could be like a signal broadcast over another reality, like augmented reality.



Here is a bit about them talking about the computer code found in the math which describes our universe.



Here is some information about Claude Shannon who wrote the specific error correcting binary computer code which they found in the math we use to describe our reality.

originally posted by: rebelv
P.S. One example of many I could give as to why people would
voluntarily want to live in a simulation, is the very real possibility
that through war, the planet in the future is not at all a nice place
to live and mostly inhospitable except for space stations or
underground chambers where they can just be hooked up to
a computer and sleep another kind of world, such as the earth in its
distant past before it was practically destroyed.

If a future society were to do this, I don't see why they wouldn't make each persons reality a utopia.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: rebelv

P.S. One example of many I could give as to why people would

voluntarily want to live in a simulation, is the very real possibility

that through war, the planet in the future is not at all a nice place

to live and mostly inhospitable except for space stations or

underground chambers where they can just be hooked up to

a computer and sleep another kind of world, such as the earth in its

distant past before it was practically destroyed.

If a future society were to do this, I don't see why they wouldn't make each persons reality a utopia.

Sounds good to me, I dont see why we cant do this now, or at least take steps towards everyones ideas of what utopia could be implemented.

I am under the impression that there is a cut off for our how far the powers that be will allow this reality to evolve. Meaning if grandma had the ability to create the entire universe she may endanger someone. Thats the excuse they give us in the form of inception in my opinion. I happen to not agree with that assesment, we can create universes and be at peace with one another, not only that we can end suffering for everyone and everything.

a reply to: naftaland
Glad to meet you as well. wow that was a very thought
out lengthy reply and I really enjoyed reading it.

It was interesting while reading your reply, I kept
thinking of the book "Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep", which of course was the novel the movie
Blade Runner was based on.

Of course you identified with the "replicants" because
that's exactly what the director Ridley Scott wanted
you to do and the Author of the Novel; Philip K. Dick.

One of my favorite movies, and I also identified with
the "replicants" as you said, the book/movie showed
just how "non-human acting/feeling" humans can be
and how "human" acting/feeling non-humans can be.

I enjoyed reading your reply.

Rebel 5

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: rebelv
P.S. One example of many I could give as to why people would
voluntarily want to live in a simulation, is the very real possibility
that through war, the planet in the future is not at all a nice place
to live and mostly inhospitable except for space stations or
underground chambers where they can just be hooked up to
a computer and sleep another kind of world, such as the earth in its
distant past before it was practically destroyed.

If a future society were to do this, I don't see why they wouldn't make each persons reality a utopia.

Wow, I wasn't expecting such amazing responses.

Well, it may not be individual people they create a utopia
for, because each simulation would require a super-computer
of some kind. Some may if they have the money.

My opinion on your question is this however and its just my
opinion but take a look at people who own classic cars, they
go all the way with it-- many of them will refuse to even put
a modern stereo system in it, they want everything original
just like it was when it first rolled off the assembly line, so
if you're going to create a simulation of some time in the past
you make it as real as that time period was to make it
attractive to people.

Let's say they made a simulation of the 1970's or 1960's
Man, that'd be awesome. If it's real enough, authentic
enough it would feel like I actually went back in time
to that period.

Just my opinion.

Rebel 5

a reply to: naftaland
I think I know what you're talking about. AI
is an interesting field as a young computer programmer
I very much wanted to get out of working for defense
contractors to make tanks shoot better (for example)
and very much wanted to get involved in the AI field.
I think I could have eventually have made a pretty good
AI, however I never was audacious enough to believe it would
be anything than a self-learning, self-programming simulation
of consciousness.

As far as a simulator goes I think I understand how one can
determine that they are in a simulation, and Synchronicity
has something to do with it. There are also "people" that
I suspect are... well, let's just leave it at that.

Rebel 5

originally posted by: rebelv
Well, it may not be individual people they create a utopia
for, because each simulation would require a super-computer
of some kind. Some may if they have the money.

Even if that's the case, I would think we wouldn't be putting people in the position in the simulation for them to go hungry, or be homeless, or destitute. Lets go back further and say there's a 50's simulation. We would all enjoy the 50's middle class lifestyle but what about the person who is given schitzophrenia and put in a mental hospital? No one would want to be that person. Even collective simulations would place everyone in a well to do home, unless some people are being punished.

So if the world is just a simulation, I dont think theres any escape other than at a soul level, meaning the matrix is just part of god as well.

So what created the "matrixmen"? As mentioned on page 1.

originally posted by: Turq1
So what created the "matrixmen"? As mentioned on page 1.

Claude Shannon most likely created the matrix since his code has been found by modern scientists written into our reality. He then reincarnated into the matrix as the Architect of the various agents and manifested himself as Will Ferrel then reincarnated again into Architect George Carlin just for gags.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: rebelv
Well, it may not be individual people they create a utopia
for, because each simulation would require a super-computer
of some kind. Some may if they have the money.

Even if that's the case, I would think we wouldn't be putting people in the position in the simulation for them to go hungry, or be homeless, or destitute. Lets go back further and say there's a 50's simulation. We would all enjoy the 50's middle class lifestyle but what about the person who is given schitzophrenia and put in a mental hospital? No one would want to be that person. Even collective simulations would place everyone in a well to do home, unless some people are being punished.

Who do you think the 'we' are? We ARE willingly taking part in this simulation we call life and WE have agreed to. The patient in the mental hospital has fully agreed and accepted their path. We write the stories of our path. We create our own reality but people don't like to hear that when their life isn't going so well as they'd like to blame others rather than themselves. It is an organic matrix that we exist within on multidimensional levels. It's far too intricate and complex for a human brain new to this to comprehend.

Try taking D.M.T for a clearer picture.