The Devil

a reply to: FlyersFan

People in Heaven are obviously righteous and have great power. It makes sense to ask them for their prayers. They are very active and aware of what is happening.

Again I don't see evidence in Scripture that says pray to those who have died. Yes people in heaven are righteous, but why use them as a mediator between you and the Father. Those verses don't imply that at all. They seem to be directions of prayer to those of us on earth.

Revelations 6:9 you pulled out of context to make a point. Revelations 6:9 is talking about the people who die in the tribulation as martyrs for turning to Christ during the reign of the AntiChrist.

I dont necessarily agree with this because I would have to look into the Hebrew here, but some say deut 18:11 says not to pray to the dead. It seems to me that verse is talking about trying to communicate with the dead in relation to ghost rather than prayer but like I said I'd have to study more to have an educated opinion on it.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Again I don't see evidence in Scripture that says pray to those who have died.

I gave you scripture quotes showing that people are supposed to pray for each other. So why should righteous people in heaven, who are close to God, be discounted from praying for us? No where does scripture say that those people are cut off from praying because they are in Heaven. In fact, it's just the opposite. Scripture clearly states that those in Heaven worship and pray.

Yes people in heaven are righteous, but why use them as a mediator between you and the Father.

If you are going to ask why ask righteous people in heaven to pray for us, then you might as well be asking 'why ask righteous people on earth to pray for us'. We are all part of the same church.

Those verses don't imply that at all. They seem to be directions of prayer to those of us on earth.

That's your interpretation. The majority of Christians disagree with your interpretation, but you are welcome to it.

Revelations 6:9 is talking about the people who die in the tribulation as martyrs for turning to Christ during the reign of the AntiChrist.

That Revelations is an example showing that people in heaven are very much aware of what is going on with others on Earth and that they are in direct communication with God.

a reply to: FlyersFan

1 timothy 2:5
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Again I don't feel as what you are saying has any biblical basis. Yes I agree we are supposed to pray for each other, but no where does it say as Mary or other saints to mediate your prayers to God for you. No where does it mention praying to those who have moved on. It only ever mentions prayer to God. I don't really think this is some huge point of contention but I think those who do it should be very careful cause it could easily fall into idol worship

a reply to: FlyersFan

1 timothy 2:5
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Again I don't feel as what you are saying has any biblical basis. Yes I agree we are supposed to pray for each other, but no where does it say as Mary or other saints to mediate your prayers to God for you. No where does it mention praying to those who have moved on. It only ever mentions prayer to God. I don't really think this is some huge point of contention but I think those who do it should be very careful cause it could easily fall into idol worship

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
No where does it mention praying to those who have moved on.

No where does it mention that you can't ask those in Heaven to pray for you. It says we are to pray for each other and ask others to pray for us. Like I said, if you chose to exclude the part of the church already in heaven, so be it. No problem. I include them in prayer requests to God. I figure they are obviously righteous, and they are aware of what is happening here, and they are already living intimately with Jesus, so I"m going to ask them to pray for me.

One mediator - Jesus. Yes. Having others pray to Jesus for you does not in any way disrupt that. When your family prays for you, they go to Jesus. When the people in Heaven pray for you, they go to Jesus. Same/same IMHO. If you think people in Heaven can't pray for you to Jesus because it somehow breaks the 'one mediator' thing, then your family here shouldn't be praying for you because they too would be breaking the 'one mediator' thing.

I'm seeing no idol worship or devil worship there. Of course, you are welcome to interpret scripture differently. No problem. Anyways, nothing else for me to say on it. Done/out.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

When the question arises, I suggest that if Jesus WAS a devout Jew, then he would have married in his teens. We don't hear a thing about anything until he's, supposedly, 30.

I don't, however, support the proposal the biblical version of an historical Jesus Christ.

WRONG, there is no rabbinical teaching about men being married in their teens. THAT is a pop culture idea.

WHERE is your information to prove that Jewish boys then were married in their teens? Paul wasn't married and neither was Timothy. There is NO Biblical mandate on how old one must be to be married, only that men MUST be old enough to take care of their wives.

AND, the Christian belief is that one should not marry if the two are not compatible intellectually or emotionally. So, give me the evidence that Jewish boys were married as teenagers.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Again I don't see evidence in Scripture that says pray to those who have died.

I gave you scripture quotes showing that people are supposed to pray for each other. So why should righteous people in heaven, who are close to God, be discounted from praying for us? No where does scripture say that those people are cut off from praying because they are in Heaven. In fact, it's just the opposite. Scripture clearly states that those in Heaven worship and pray.

Yes people in heaven are righteous, but why use them as a mediator between you and the Father.

If you are going to ask why ask righteous people in heaven to pray for us, then you might as well be asking 'why ask righteous people on earth to pray for us'. We are all part of the same church.

Those verses don't imply that at all. They seem to be directions of prayer to those of us on earth.

That's your interpretation. The majority of Christians disagree with your interpretation, but you are welcome to it.

Revelations 6:9 is talking about the people who die in the tribulation as martyrs for turning to Christ during the reign of the AntiChrist.

That Revelations is an example showing that people in heaven are very much aware of what is going on with others on Earth and that they are in direct communication with God.

It's funny, Protestants still talk to dead loved ones, just think about how many funerals they go to just to say good-bye and literally talk to the dead body. They even go to graves and talk to the headstones.

I mean, come on, most everyone does that.

a reply to: WarminIndy

The Bible mandate?

"Be Fruitful and multiply".

Why do you continue to deny that this commandment was the responsibility of every Jew, men and women, to keep? Having children out of wedlock was an unacceptable option.

You don't know that Paul wasn't married in his youth. There is every indication that he would have married, by his own admittance of trying to accomplish all the steps to become part of the Sanhedrin, one of which was to display control over one's own family.

The only other option to consider of a group of unmarried Jewish men in that day is that they were of the Essene sect. This is an option that mainstream Christianity refuses to accept.

So, give me the evidence that Jewish boys were married as teenagers.

What Is a Bar Mitzvah?

According to Jewish law, at the age of thirteen a boy is no longer considered a minor and is responsible to fulfill all the Torah’s commandments. The term “bar mitzvah” literally means “son of the mitzvah,” or one who is obligated in mitzvah observance.

a reply to: windword

Be fruitful and multiply, one can multiply 1 and 1 and still it is just 1.

There is NO indication that Paul would have married. Where did you come up with that? The Sanhedrin rules required men to be married?

Bar mitzvah, yes, I know what that is, sorry but there is still no command in that for boys to be married as teenagers. Show me the evidence without assumption.

Torah, when it says to be fruitful and multiply, that does not mean necessarily as a teenager. Do you suppose Adam and Eve were teenagers when God said that to them?

There were more groups than just the Essenes then, but you still have to prove any of the disciples were in the Essenes. Oh wait, Peter and Philip were both married, so nope, they weren't Essenes, if the requirement was to be married. But please, since you didn't know about bar Mitzvahs other than what you read online, let me inform you of what it means. The boy becomes part of the Jewish community because the tradition dates back to when Levi and Simeon went into the city of Shekem to rescue their sister Dinah who had been kidnapped and raped. In those days, a boy was considered old enough to take up a sword, but only when absolutely necessary. You need to have Jewish friends so they can take you to bar mitzvahs, then you will learn these things.

But you do know that rabbinical teaching changes over time according to the different rabbis throughout time? I am sure you do know that Talmud is just a book of opinions. Torah is the Bible scriptures on which Talmud is based upon, but did you know that there is a group of Jews called Karaites? Those are Torah only Jews who do not rely on opinions of rabbis.

But you are still going to have to prove that teenage boys had to be married.

originally posted by: backcase
The Antichrist is to be anti-cross,
for the Devil is he who hates discipline.
The Devil appeared to Jesus in the desert,
and he appeared again in St. Peter,
and Jesus spoke the same words when being tempted away from His Cross:

What is the big deal with the Devil? God created it and allows its being to exist. God and the Devil are not twin creator dopplegangers (no duality at that level of existence). Duality here for sure/we invented it (sin/guilt vs love/compassion). "Thy Words Will Be Done". Whose, yours or gods; at this point Ego is out the window. You are not in charge of anything; natural response "WHO CARES".

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: backcase
The Antichrist is to be anti-cross,
for the Devil is he who hates discipline.
The Devil appeared to Jesus in the desert,
and he appeared again in St. Peter,
and Jesus spoke the same words when being tempted away from His Cross:

What is the big deal with the Devil? God created it and allows its being to exist. God and the Devil are not twin creator dopplegangers (no duality at that level of existence). Duality here for sure/we invented it (sin/guilt vs love/compassion). "Thy Words Will Be Done". Whose, yours or gods; at this point Ego is out the window. You are not in charge of anything; natural response "WHO CARES".

Oh, you typed w*i*n*d*o*w, I see they haven't fixed that bug yet.

a reply to: backcase

A powerful experience indeed.

I still don't believe there is scriptural evidence to back up Hell being fiery everlasting torment.. But also don't really want to debate it. I know I made it sound like I did lol. In the long run it wouldn't matter anyway. You have your beliefs and I have mine.

I've enjoyed reading this thread though.

I feel I have a deeper understanding of the Catholic position on some things.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Well Jesus had to deal with the Devil, and by his dealings he taught us to deal with the Devil. By saying 'get thee behind me, Satan!'

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I'm sorry to hear that. If you ever encounter such evil you'll at least know what to do though, God bless you.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Respected Rabbi Isaac Klein in his book: ‘A Guide to Jewish Religious Practice’, says that Child marriages were common and that ‘age was not the factor’ when someone had to get married. So in other words no matter what the age of the girl, once the parents gave the go ahead, the girl had to choose the husband, she had no choice in the matter.

“Child marriages were very common in ancient days. Since marriages were arranged by parents and the consent of parties was not necessary, AGE WAS NOT THE FACTOR in coming to an agreement. The physical factor related only to the consummation of the marriage. Hence, there was usually a waiting period between the agreement and the consummation. It is logical to assume that when a boy and a girl reached the age of puberty, and the sex urge demanded satisfaction, ancient society deemed marriage to be the answer. In time, other elements became factor in marriage: climate, social conditions, economic conditions, and even political conditions.”
discover-the-truth.com...

Boys didn't have a choice. Their parents arranged their marriages for them. Villages couldn't have horny teenagers running about. They had to nip it in the bud and coral that sexual urge into progenitors early on. People didn't live that long in those days.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
What is the big deal with the Devil?

Have you ever had an encounter with a demon? I have. More than once. It's a big deal.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Well Jesus had to deal with the Devil, and by his dealings he taught us to deal with the Devil. By saying 'get thee behind me, Satan!'

NO, I cry. The devil is of God's creation not on a human level. This idea form is not physical (not to be manifested). You in idiocy would do such a thing in ignorance.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

God did not create the Devil, He created the angel. The angel is by no means on the level that God is on, but the Devil fooled himself, being blinded by his own pride he said to himself, I am like God.

I do not believe that the Devil is the opposite of God, although the word used in the thread is the anti Christ, I believe that St. Michael the Archangel illustrated their relationship well when he said "who is like God?".

a reply to: windword


Show me the evidence of teenage boys having to be married.

Arranged marriages are an Asian concept, that is all.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: backcase
The Antichrist is to be anti-cross,
for the Devil is he who hates discipline.
The Devil appeared to Jesus in the desert,
and he appeared again in St. Peter,
and Jesus spoke the same words when being tempted away from His Cross:

What is the big deal with the Devil? God created it and allows its being to exist. God and the Devil are not twin creator dopplegangers (no duality at that level of existence). Duality here for sure/we invented it (sin/guilt vs love/compassion). "Thy Words Will Be Done". Whose, yours or gods; at this point Ego is out the window. You are not in charge of anything; natural response "WHO CARES".

Oh, you typed w*i*n*d*o*w, I see they haven't fixed that bug yet.

Oh; isn't that weird. Maybe they also thought I said 'words' really meant a double will will (be done).