The Devil

nvm

originally posted by: WarminIndy
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

WarminIndy: You have a belief system. You believe in something and systematically rationalize it.
So it is not a lie and neither is it a fault, because everyone believes in something. Tears for Fears...
Everybody wants to rule the world, even if it is just their little space and time, their own corner of the world. I am sure that in your belief system you believe that you may walk around naked in your home if you wish. I am sure that in your belief system, you can do what you want because you are you.

Best song ever! and so true; Dennis Millers theme song. I do not have a belief system; discernment only as to what does not vibrate/resonate to my truth. I'm a gnostic.

a reply to: backcase

I don't mean to be rude but I've never read anything that says mary was anything other than a woman.

What verses are you pulling the blessed mother from

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

He was referencing this scripture quote with the 'crushed the head of the serpent' -

Gen 3:15 “and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise [crush—NIV] thy head, and thou shalt bruise [strike—NIV] his heel.”

Bible 101 - Mary vs Devil

Enmity comes from the word enemy, and it means open hatred that manifests itself in attacks or aggression. Genesis 3:15 happens right after God told the serpent (the devil) that he would be banned from all wild creatures and crawl on his belly. Some people make the mistake of thinking ?The Woman? in Genesis 3:15 is Eve, but Eve is not at enmity with the devil; rather, she is union with the devil through her sin. And since women don?t have seeds, but eggs, this verse implies that a very special future woman (Immaculately Conceived who would later give birth to her seed as a virgin) would come on the scene later on. Her seed would strike at the devil?s head (crush the serpent?s head in some translations). Jesus did this on the cross, at a place called Golgotha, the place of the Skull. His great sacrifice on the cross crushed the head of the serpent by opening the gates of heaven that had been shut to all since the Garden of Eden.

Different scripture translations

This is because Christians have recognized (all the way back to the first century) that the woman and her seed mentioned in Genesis 3:15 do not simply stand for Eve and one of her righteous sons (either Abel or Seth). They prophetically foreshadow Mary and Jesus. Thus, just as the first half of the verse, speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman, has been applied to Mary, the second half, speaking of the head crushing and heel striking, has also been applied to Mary due to the manuscript variant, though it properly applies to Jesus, given the original Hebrew.

Theological Discussion - Biblical Basis of Mary as the New Eve

And so, there comes into the world a Son, "the seed of the woman" who will crush the evil of sin in its very origins: "he will crush the head of the serpent." As we see from the words of the Protogospel, the victory of the woman's Son will not take place without hard struggle, a struggle that is to extend through the whole of human history. The "enmity," foretold at the beginning, is confirmed in the Apocalypse (the book of the final events of the Church and the world), in which there recurs the sign of the "woman," this time "clothed with the sun" (Rev 12:1). Mary, Mother of the Incarnate Word, is placed at the very center of that enmity, that struggle which accompanies the history of humanity on earth and the history of humanity itself. (Redemptor Hominis)

So in these two writings of two great popes, we see the fact that it is Offspring which is Christ by which the Mother of God crushes the serpent. As with all that may be said of Mary, she and her Son are intimately bound in the work of Redemption.

As for Mary being special ... there are many versus. For example - “You see this child: he is destined to be a sign that is rejected, and a sword will pierce your own soul too, so that the secret thought of many may be laid bare.”

And of course the prophecy/prayer of Luke 1:46-55

My soul magnifies the Lord
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior;
Because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid;
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed ;
Because He who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is His name;
And His mercy is from generation to generation
on those who fear Him.
He has shown might with His arm,
He has scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and has exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich He has sent away empty.
He has given help to Israel, his servant, mindful of His mercy
Even as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity forever.

And the Angel of God himself called Mary 'Full of Grace'.
He said in greeting - 'hail full of Grace, the Lord is with you'
If sin is present then she wouldn't have been 'FULL of Grace'.
Luke 1:28
The modern Protestant translations try to take that away and say 'highly favored'.
For some reason, Protestants are afraid of Mary.

Mary isn't God. But she indeed is very special.
Jesus said we are to pray to God for each other.
Asking her to pray to God for us makes sense.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I would say that flyersfan answered your question more than well.

a reply to: FlyersFan


Gen 3:15 “and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise [crush—NIV] thy head, and thou shalt bruise [strike—NIV] his heel."

Ok, but where in this verse or the interpretation of this verse does a person see anything suggesting we should think of Mary as anything more than a sinner like you an I. Jesus is who crushes the serpent .

From now on all generations will call me blessed, 49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me— holy is his name.

So from this one sentence where do you get that we should worship Mary or give her any preferential treatment. Of course future generations will call her blessed she had the Son of God, but that doesn't mean future generations will worship her nor does it meant that we should.

And the Angel of God himself called Mary 'Full of Grace'. He said in greeting - 'hail full of Grace, the Lord is with you' If sin is present then she wouldn't have been 'FULL of Grace'. Luke 1:28

All Christians are full of God's Grace. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. Just because someone is full of Grace doesn't mean they aren't sinful actually I would argue that sinners are the one who need grace the most. So the fact that you see grace doesn't mean that she wasn't a sinner on the contrary it means she didn't do anything to deserve God's favor.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
that doesn't mean future generations will worship her nor does it meant that we should.

Mary was saved by Jesus. No one worships Mary. I know you've been told this before. Christians are told to pray for each other. Catholics ask Mary to pray for them to God. That's NOT worship of Mary. Not even close. And if you look at the Catholic Catechism it is very clear that only God is worshipped.

Also - Full means no room for anything else. Mary was addressed by Heaven as 'Full of Grace'. Christians are not full of grace .. they have room for sin.

Being some kind of protestant, you have been trained to disagree with that. However, more than half of Christianity agrees with the Catholic interpretation of scripture and with the Catholic theology on this matter.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The Magnificat is one of the most beautiful prayers ever.

I love it.

I may not be Catholic, but I don't understand how Christians would not honor the Mother of our Lord. After all, He did.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
honor the Mother of our Lord. After all, He did.

Now did he really? Last time I checked his honoring his parents wasn't very impressive:

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” [ESV] Mark 3:31-35

Not very impressive at all.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Actually, unmerited favor is merely only one definition of grace. That is the most popular one that people hold on to.

The archaic definition and the one that was used then is mercy. Only in the last several years has the definition changed to accommodate unmerited favor. It is true, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. However, if grace is unmerited favor, then the Jews were the first to receive it and since God doesn't go back on His word, that means the Jews are still under grace. Abraham didn't have to sacrifice Isaac to get favor, God stopped him. But that was after God said "I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you". Talking of Abraham and his descendants.

You have just convinced me by your modern definition that the Jews have unmerited favor (grace) that God can never rescind, because the gifts and calling are without repentance. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, that's His choice to make. We can't change His mind, but He gave the gift of grace without repenting for it.

And Mary didn't do the will of God?

I'm sorry, but Jesus kept the law to the letter, "thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father". Do you really think that you interpreted that correctly? Take your blinders off and consider who was saying it and why.

Jesus looked down from the cross and said to John, "Son, behold thy mother". That means that John had a duty now, as we all do, to look after those mothers, which James also says that pure religion is, to look after the widows and the orphans. I suppose in this day and time it is much easier just to let the government or someone else do it.

You have a duty to your fellow humans, that is what Jesus was teaching. I'm surprised you didn't realize that.

a reply to: FlyersFan

3- Devotion to the Blessed Mother - For She has crushed the head of the serpent beneath Her heel!

Ok, my problem was he gave credit to Mary for crushing the head of the serpent. It is clearly a He in genesis 3 and a reference to Jesus. He also said that devotion to Mary is something you need.

de·vo·tion
dəˈvōSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: devotion

love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause.
"Eleanor's devotion to her husband"
synonyms: loyalty, faithfulness, fidelity, constancy, commitment, adherence, allegiance, dedication; More
fondness, love, admiration, affection, care
"her devotion to her husband"

religious worship or observance.
"the order's aim was to live a life of devotion"
synonyms: devoutness, piety, religiousness, spirituality, godliness, holiness, sanctity
"a life of devotion"

prayers or religious observances.

That word gives me the connotation that he worships mary.

Also - Full means no room for anything else. Mary was addressed by Heaven as 'Full of Grace'. Christians are not full of grace .. they have room for sin.

Born-again Christians are spiritually full of grace. God no longer views a Christian as a sinner because of they are full of His grace. Why would Mary need to be saved by Jesus if she was full of grace already and had no sin?

Being some kind of protestant, you have been trained to disagree with that. However, more than half of Christianity agrees with the Catholic interpretation of scripture and with the Catholic theology on this matter.

I am not a protestant or a catholic or anything. I merely follow what the Bible says. If you can show me the Bible says ask Mary to pray to God for you, then I won't have a problem with it. It just seems to be glorification of a person over God to me thats all.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm sorry, but Jesus kept the law to the letter

Did he now?

"Be fruitful and multiply.

God's mandate to all of humanity, and especially the Jews.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Let me ask this, why did God choose Mary?

And didn't Gabriel say "thou who are highly favored"? Well, if favored means grace, then she was extraordinarily more favored than the rest of us, because no other person God ever spoke to was highly favored.

But since your definition of grace is unmerited favor, and Mary did nothing to earn that favor, then she was highly graced. I think by your definition that FlyersFan would have to be correct.

If that is the definition you choose to use, then it applies succinctly.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm sorry, but Jesus kept the law to the letter

Did he now?

"Be fruitful and multiply.

God's mandate to all of humanity, and especially the Jews.

Aren't you a believer in Jesus being married and having children? I thought you were a proponent of that.

Well now, I think mankind has achieved that one quite well. But I have to add, He did, very spiritually He did.

a reply to: WarminIndy

When the question arises, I suggest that if Jesus WAS a devout Jew, then he would have married in his teens. We don't hear a thing about anything until he's, supposedly, 30.

I don't, however, support the proposal the biblical version of an historical Jesus Christ.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
If you can show me the Bible says ask Mary to pray to God for you, then I won't have a problem with it. .

Scripture is very clear - we are to pray for each other.
We ask people to pray for us all the time.
Mary is a 'righteous person' and thus her prayers in Heaven have 'great power and produce wonderful results'.
Every righteous person praying for others can do so.
Common sense - ask the righteous to pray for us.

James 5:16 - Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

Verse after verse stating we are to pray for each other - read here.

1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

Ephesians 6:18 Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

Romans 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,

And so on and so on. Scripture is clear .... pray for each other and ask others to pray for you. Scripture is clear ... the prayers of the righteous are powerful. So there you go. And now you should have no problem with people asking Mary, and those who are in Heaven, to pray for them.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Grace defined as mercy works for me just as well, and I don't see much difference in Mercy(undeserved). When Mary found favor with God I assume it was the same way Abraham found favor with God. Through Faith in Him.

Again I have no problem with people respecting Mary, but it is imperative to understand she just as you and I was a sinner. As long as that is there I have no issue. My main issue was he gave credit to Mary for crushing Satan when that is something Christ did.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Those verse seem to be talking about people who are still on Earth. I don't see any reason to extend those to people who have passed on.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Those verse seem to be talking about people who are still on Earth. I don't see any reason to extend those to people who have passed on.

People in Heaven are obviously righteous and have great power. It makes sense to ask them for their prayers. They are very active and aware of what is happening.

Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

If you choose to ignore them and not ask them to pray for you, that's your business. But others are aware that the church consists of those on Earth and those in Heaven as well. We are in this together. The church militant on earth and the church triumphant in Heaven.

Asking them to pray for us isn't worshipping them. It's just honoring them (as Jesus honored His mother) and asking for their powerful prayers.