Support of torture: Another reason why fundamentalist and orthodox religion has failed.

Funny, this Christian doesn't support any form of torture, no matter who it is.

Quit lumping all Christians together. The same logic can be used to lump all Muslims into one big bunch of beheading fundamentalists.......which they're not!

See, goes all ways.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Sigh, I didn't claim hypocrisy didn't exist.LOL. The U.S. is full of it.

So is the rest of the world...Especially the U.N..

I believe any country that is attacked can respond without 'permission'. Especially when that 'body' that would give it is run by, so sorry, "hypocrites".

You believe the U.N. is based on the spirit of the Law. I believe it is no less an agenda driven organization that see itself as a world government. That their 'spirit' of the law is nothing more than a shackle of control.

The spirit of the law that you refer to I will, AGAIN, state when the "all's well" sounds, I abide with that 'spirit". When the sirens go off? I'm going change 'spirits'.

It's call balance. It doesn't match yours, I know.

originally posted by: Yeahkeepwatchingme
Funny, this Christian doesn't support any form of torture, no matter who it is.

Quit lumping all Christians together. The same logic can be used to lump all Muslims into one big bunch of beheading fundamentalists.......which they're not!

See, goes all ways.

You are right, that many Christians do not. And many people of other religions seem to support problematic things. But the question remains strongly, why in the poll of Americans did the evangelicals support torture far more than non-religious people? That is something that Christians need to look at.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Sigh, I didn't claim hypocrisy didn't exist.LOL. The U.S. is full of it.

So is the rest of the world...Especially the U.N..

I believe any country that is attacked can respond without 'permission'. Especially when that 'body' that would give it is run by, so sorry, "hypocrites".

You believe the U.N. is based on the spirit of the Law. I believe it is no less an agenda driven organization that see itself as a world government. That their 'spirit' of the law is nothing more than a shackle of control.

The spirit of the law that you refer to I will, AGAIN, state when the "all's well" sounds, I abide with that 'spirit". When the sirens go off? I'm going change 'spirits'.

It's call balance. It doesn't match yours, I know.

I think you are confusing what happened after 911.

You say, any country can respond without permission when attacked. YES, they can, under the law of self-defense, but ONLY in response to the exact group or country attacking. Hence, only Afghanistan was justifiable, maybe also small attacks in Pakistan.

Iraq, once again, had nothing to do with 911. Even Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld later admitted this numerous times. Hence, your argument falls flat regarding self-defense.

No, if Sweden attacks Italy, Italy cannot attack randomly Britain. It's not only not self-defense it's also insane.

Also, we signed on to these UN rules. And those UN rules make sense for keeping the peace. The whole point of the UN security rules is to prevent unilateral actions that disturb the peace. To stop what was the cause of war so many times before WWII.

The biggest breakers of the peace and those who act unilaterally? Mostly the Permanent Five: US, China, Russia, etc.

Every great civilization has always had a good torture routine. If america fails it will be because of a lack of torture. It is clear to any who seek through the scriptures that we are here to suffer. The belief is that heaven will be kinda opposite from this world. It is no coincidence that 99% of the people are ruled by 1% of the people. The last will be first and the first will be last. In the next world 99% of the people will rule and the other 1% will be forgivin for their deeds by you. You can lie to yourselves all day long about the reality of this place but you will not change the fact that we are owned and all being slowly tortured every day. There will come a time where you will wish you would have been fed backwards.

originally posted by: Yeahkeepwatchingme
Funny, this Christian doesn't support any form of torture, no matter who it is.

Quit lumping all Christians together. The same logic can be used to lump all Muslims into one big bunch of beheading fundamentalists.......which they're not!

See, goes all ways.

In a society that thrives on "us vs. them," generalizations that shift blame from 'us' to 'them' will be commonplace. You can generally tell how an individual defines us/them just by how they approach any given topic. Sometimes I find it more accurate to understand someone's actual beliefs by investigating who they define as their adversary. This method's accuracy seems proportional to how much time an individual spends focused on whatever they perceive to be their adversary.

Spending all of our time and effort on adversarial Ventures could be seen as luciferian and is a practice engaged in by most of society, including most modern interpretations of Christianity. So many of us spend time and effort on the conflict, rather than seeking out areas of agreement, progress, and growth.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Every great civilization has always had a good torture routine. If america fails it will be because of a lack of torture. It is clear to any who seek through the scriptures that we are here to suffer. The belief is that heaven will be kinda opposite from this world. It is no coincidence that 99% of the people are ruled by 1% of the people. The last will be first and the first will be last. In the next world 99% of the people will rule and the other 1% will be forgivin for their deeds by you. You can lie to yourselves all day long about the reality of this place but you will not change the fact that we are owned and all being slowly tortured every day. There will come a time where you will wish you would have been fed backwards.

I don't really know what to say to that... I cannot agree. America ostensibly stands for freedom, human rights, due process, protection from tyranny. Torture and violating people's right to due process and access to legal services is not in line with American values, nor spiritual values.

And what do you mean by "Every great civilization has had a good torture routine. If America fails it will be because of a lack of torture?" And do you think that this is in line with what Jesus taught? Or the other religious masters?

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Sigh, OK. First, the fighting never stopped in Iraq. Saddam had violated the cease-fire agreements repeatedly. He fired SAM's at Coalition fighters almost non-stop in the no-fly zone. He also refused full access to U.N. inspectors.

Nothing in Saddam's actions indicate Gulf war one was over.

Now throw in 9/11- not a country's doing, so you analogy is doesn't apply- and the U.S. is caught with it's pants down.

Everything changes from that point on. Looking at the mess that the Middle East was- largely due to those wankers in England who split up the Ottoman Empire into the worst possible combination...deliberately- and the likelihood of more and worse attacks and there you have it.

Terrorist training camps from Libya right through to Iraq and beyond. No, not all Al-Qaeda, but hundreds of them. Most state sponsored, or at least tolerated.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, craps like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Bush goes "why are we swatting at flies?" ( Going after individuals like Bin Laden alone) when hundreds more are spitting out on a regular basis. What is labeled a 'war on terror' is, in fact, a war on state sponsored terrorism hiding behind diplomatic morons at the State department and their ilk around the world.

But Iraq is still unfinished business. Saddam's fault, he was offered an out and refused it. Sobeit.

Bush was finishing it.... well, attempting to finish it. he didn't start it, he was ending it. Unilaterally? Yes.

When has the U.N. EVER solved a fracas?? End of story. Bush acted.

Six foot wide rear view mirrors gives me pause to that decision. It didn't then and was understandable, from what I can see.

In any event, that set up a series of events that are occurring on an almost daily basis ever since.

Where it ends is anyone's guess. I shall keep all options open until it gets sorted out....

originally posted by: Serdgiam

originally posted by: Yeahkeepwatchingme
Funny, this Christian doesn't support any form of torture, no matter who it is.

Quit lumping all Christians together. The same logic can be used to lump all Muslims into one big bunch of beheading fundamentalists.......which they're not!

See, goes all ways.

In a society that thrives on "us vs. them," generalizations that shift blame from 'us' to 'them' will be commonplace. You can generally tell how an individual defines us/them just by how they approach any given topic. Sometimes I find it more accurate to understand someone's actual beliefs by investigating who they define as their adversary. This method's accuracy seems proportional to how much time an individual spends focused on whatever they perceive to be their adversary.

Spending all of our time and effort on adversarial Ventures could be seen as luciferian and is a practice engaged in by most of society, including most modern interpretations of Christianity. So many of us spend time and effort on the conflict, rather than seeking out areas of agreement, progress, and growth.

Except, if you notice in my op and the article in question it doesn't generalize, it shows that a higher percentage, not all, of American evangelicals support torture. One, that is therefore evidence, not generalization, and two, doesn't claim that all Evangelicals do so. Generally, I am against stereotyping and us versus them mentalities.

However, as a person raised in an evangelical home with many many Christian friends and family members, these are real questions and problems that can and should be addressed, especially in a democracy. Questioning disturbing trends in a judicious way is not falling into false us versus them dichotomies.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: deadeyedick

Every great civilization has always had a good torture routine. If america fails it will be because of a lack of torture. It is clear to any who seek through the scriptures that we are here to suffer. The belief is that heaven will be kinda opposite from this world. It is no coincidence that 99% of the people are ruled by 1% of the people. The last will be first and the first will be last. In the next world 99% of the people will rule and the other 1% will be forgivin for their deeds by you. You can lie to yourselves all day long about the reality of this place but you will not change the fact that we are owned and all being slowly tortured every day. There will come a time where you will wish you would have been fed backwards.

I don't really know what to say to that... I cannot agree. America ostensibly stands for freedom, human rights, due process, protection from tyranny. Torture and violating people's right to due process and access to legal services is not in line with American values, nor spiritual values.



And what do you mean by "Every great civilization has had a good torture routine. If America fails it will be because of a lack of torture?" And do you think that this is in line with what Jesus taught? Or the other religious masters?

i starred your post but it only tells half the story. America is much hypocritical in our policies. even though we stand for one thing we do a different thing and at the end of the day all those freedoms we believe we have are all compromised greatly. Presidents have stedily pushed back every right the country was founded on.

It is highly likely that no one will agree with what i wrote cause it is a hard truth that evil exist in opposition to good. Torture ws laid out clearly in the front of the bible. I can not really say if it is supposed to be the way it is but everyday the us has prisons filled with people that have not traspassed in this life against gods law but are there suffering. We all know that we in the us are all owned and your birth certificate is proof. every us citizen is in debt over 50,000 bucks to the system at birth. Most are indentured servants. some are the masters. The real truth is kinda sickening so we lie to ourselves with the latest trends.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Considering the falsities of the Roman Catholic Church, preachers misinterpreting the Bible, most people who identify as "Christian" really aren't. They're barking up the wrong tree. Since religious horror is a big topic nowadays, the media jumps on it like other stories of religious fundamentalism not to expose it, but to inflame the arguments originating from both sides.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


You know, that is a funny thing. How do you know it was really Evangelicals who took the survey and not just a bunch of trolls who pretended to be that just to get a laugh out of results they purposely skewed?

I don't support torture and never have heard anyone else who is Evangelical support it. In fact, most Evangelicals and Fundamentals I know actually don't even support the death penalty. I think this is black propaganda and certainly skewed.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


You know, that is a funny thing. How do you know it was really Evangelicals who took the survey and not just a bunch of trolls who pretended to be that just to get a laugh out of results they purposely skewed?

I don't support torture and never have heard anyone else who is Evangelical support it. In fact, most Evangelicals and Fundamentals I know actually don't even support the death penalty. I think this is black propaganda and certainly skewed.

That is doubtful if the survey and research design is properly constructed. By the way, the majority of surveys now days do not ask you your demographic questions, including religion, until the end, as a side note. Hence, your proposition is unlikely.

Second, I have a ton of evangelical and religious right wing friends and family members. I can confidently say that far more of them are in support of US foreign policy, Bush's wars, and the torture regime than are my liberal and non-religious friends. On the torture and war issues, I know a lot of people who are not religious or conservative who do support those things, so it's obviously not cut and dry.

But the stats in this case do bring up a big problem for evangelicals. The stats show much more evangelicals supporting it than non-evangelicals.

It is the same for support of Bush's wars. A large amount of conservative evangelicals were all for them, even though the wars were not for any real justice and killed a lot of people.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


You know, that is a funny thing. How do you know it was really Evangelicals who took the survey and not just a bunch of trolls who pretended to be that just to get a laugh out of results they purposely skewed?

I don't support torture and never have heard anyone else who is Evangelical support it. In fact, most Evangelicals and Fundamentals I know actually don't even support the death penalty. I think this is black propaganda and certainly skewed.

That is doubtful if the survey and research design is properly constructed. By the way, the majority of surveys now days do not ask you your demographic questions, including religion, until the end, as a side note. Hence, your proposition is unlikely.

Second, I have a ton of evangelical and religious right wing friends and family members. I can confidently say that far more of them are in support of US foreign policy, Bush's wars, and the torture regime than are my liberal and non-religious friends. On the torture and war issues, I know a lot of people who are not religious or conservative who do support those things, so it's obviously not cut and dry.

But the stats in this case do bring up a big problem for evangelicals. The stats show much more evangelicals supporting it than non-evangelicals.

It is the same for support of Bush's wars. A large amount of conservative evangelicals were all for them, even though the wars were not for any real justice and killed a lot of people.

If it was conducted online, how do you know it wasn't trolls? Are you taking every poll at face value that the people taking are really who they say they are?

Can you say with 100% certainty that it wasn't trolls? Can you say with 100% certainty that WaPo didn't construct the poll answers as well, in an effort to make Evangelicals look bad?

Why do you people take these polls so seriously when you don't even know who answered them? Why are you on ATS and don't question everything?

As far as torture regime, can I ask you this, isn't it torture to behead someone, stone an adulterer and let little girls burn to death because they weren't wearing burkhas? Tell me, whose side are you really on? That's a question you will have to answer within yourself, because if nothing is done about all those other tortures, then it will continue.

You must approve of torture of little girls, otherwise you would be vocal about it calling it what it is, instead you play the "oh, I'm the liberal, life loving, coexisting socially conscious American who wouldn't support hatred and bigotry, except against those who disagree with my views".

I say let's call what those others are doing, because they are the real torture regimes. But your side fails to see that going on, but continue Bush-bashing because it is simply popular. When getting down to the nitty gritty, whose side are you on?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


You know, that is a funny thing. How do you know it was really Evangelicals who took the survey and not just a bunch of trolls who pretended to be that just to get a laugh out of results they purposely skewed?

I don't support torture and never have heard anyone else who is Evangelical support it. In fact, most Evangelicals and Fundamentals I know actually don't even support the death penalty. I think this is black propaganda and certainly skewed.

That is doubtful if the survey and research design is properly constructed. By the way, the majority of surveys now days do not ask you your demographic questions, including religion, until the end, as a side note. Hence, your proposition is unlikely.

Second, I have a ton of evangelical and religious right wing friends and family members. I can confidently say that far more of them are in support of US foreign policy, Bush's wars, and the torture regime than are my liberal and non-religious friends. On the torture and war issues, I know a lot of people who are not religious or conservative who do support those things, so it's obviously not cut and dry.

But the stats in this case do bring up a big problem for evangelicals. The stats show much more evangelicals supporting it than non-evangelicals.

It is the same for support of Bush's wars. A large amount of conservative evangelicals were all for them, even though the wars were not for any real justice and killed a lot of people.

If it was conducted online, how do you know it wasn't trolls? Are you taking every poll at face value that the people taking are really who they say they are?

Can you say with 100% certainty that it wasn't trolls? Can you say with 100% certainty that WaPo didn't construct the poll answers as well, in an effort to make Evangelicals look bad?

Why do you people take these polls so seriously when you don't even know who answered them? Why are you on ATS and don't question everything?

As far as torture regime, can I ask you this, isn't it torture to behead someone, stone an adulterer and let little girls burn to death because they weren't wearing burkhas? Tell me, whose side are you really on? That's a question you will have to answer within yourself, because if nothing is done about all those other tortures, then it will continue.

You must approve of torture of little girls, otherwise you would be vocal about it calling it what it is, instead you play the "oh, I'm the liberal, life loving, coexisting socially conscious American who wouldn't support hatred and bigotry, except against those who disagree with my views".

I say let's call what those others are doing, because they are the real torture regimes. But your side fails to see that going on, but continue Bush-bashing because it is simply popular. When getting down to the nitty gritty, whose side are you on?

You seem to support torture on the part of the US as well, as you are now being an apologist for it or minimizing it. Just because someone else does bad things to their people doesn't mean it magically becomes okay. Going back to my initial post, such actions have nothing to do with God nor spirituality.

It is also a massive logical fallacy and diversion to claim "because you are against the US breaking international laws, torturing people, and violating their due process, then you must support human rights abuses elsewhere! And, And, torture of little girls!" That is quite obviously non-sensical, so perhaps you should reconsider your statement. Because of course, if I don't support US torture i MUST support violations of human rights elsewhere?

I call out human rights abuses everywhere, as I work in international development and social justice.

Torture is wrong. It is illegal. It doesn't work. We gave our word via international agreements, something that Christians are supposed to uphold, i.e. keeping your word and following the law? Or are you suggesting as I pointed out that there is one law for 3rd world countries and another for the US? That the US can torture?

If one can't call out the excesses and evils of your own government, I don't think one has the right to consider themselves moral nor truly spiritual. At the very least they are uneducated.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Nope, I am pointing out the hypocrisy.

Either torture is bad for everyone or it isn't bad at all. We can't preach at the choir expecting those others to be sitting on the pews listening.

Either condemn it across the board or don't mention it at all. That's the problem in this country, we love to only condemn something if it goes against what is acceptable to our wanna' be peer groups. Sometimes peer groups hold more sway when it comes to opinions.

So is torture bad for everyone? Then stand up against that torture as well.

Nope, you didn't speak against those others.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Nope, I am pointing out the hypocrisy.

Either torture is bad for everyone or it isn't bad at all. We can't preach at the choir expecting those others to be sitting on the pews listening.

Either condemn it across the board or don't mention it at all. That's the problem in this country, we love to only condemn something if it goes against what is acceptable to our wanna' be peer groups. Sometimes peer groups hold more sway when it comes to opinions.

So is torture bad for everyone? Then stand up against that torture as well.

Logical fallacy and assumption: That I don't stand up or call out other human rights abuses or others protesting don't. Yes, torture is bad for everyone. That's why we have international laws and conventions forbidding it. You do realize that the international community has been calling out torture for decades right? You do realize that this is in the Geneva Conventions and UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? If you don't know now you do, and henceforth have no ability to say torture is legal. We signed those agreements.

Those human rights abuses in other places are called out ALL of the time by human rights organizations, as well as politicians, news organizations, etc. The hypocrisy is not that people are calling out the US but not others. You have it the exact opposite. The HYPOCRISY is that Americans have been deriding other countries, invading them, couping them, and sanctioning them ostensibly for their lack of freedom or democracy, while the US simultaneously is violating democracy, freedom, and human rights abroad.

Many of these dictators and regimes have been indicted, even convicted under international law, for human rights abuses. Meanwhile, can you please tell me a single US president who has?

THAT, is hypocrisy on the part of the West.

Please stop apologizing for war crimes. It makes us as Americans look horrible to others, and they stereotype and hate us based on such statements.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


Why do you younger people always say "logical fallacy"?

Preaching to the choir, as always. I really want to see you guys speaking against them. Otherwise you aren't convincing me at all.

This would be the headline of the day "Moderate Muslims speaking out against fundamentalist Islamic torture and it accomplishes a reduction in murders in the Islamic world".

Tell me why you are so afraid to stand up to it. You are constantly poking at Christians and yet not a single Christian on here said they approve of torture. Talk about a logical fallacy.

I want to see the threads you have created speaking out against Islamic tortures. Please post a link so I can read them.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14


Why do you younger people always say "logical fallacy"?

Preaching to the choir, as always. I really want to see you guys speaking against them. Otherwise you aren't convincing me at all.

This would be the headline of the day "Moderate Muslims speaking out against fundamentalist Islamic torture and it accomplishes a reduction in murders in the Islamic world".

Tell me why you are so afraid to stand up to it. You are constantly poking at Christians and yet not a single Christian on here said they approve of torture. Talk about a logical fallacy.

I want to see the threads you have created speaking out against Islamic tortures. Please post a link so I can read them.

\

People in general will call a logical fallacy when that's exactly what you are using or employing. Ad hominem, false attributions, diversions, etc.

I have explained now in no uncertain terms that torture is wrong across the board. Not only that, you have no idea what other people do on other threads and do as activism in their personal lives. 99% of my activism is outside of ATS, and i do it professionally.

Yes, most Muslim Fundamentalists fail for the same reasons as Christian fundamentalists. They are but mirrors of their Christian fundamentalist brethren, with only the added power of a theocracy. Just like how fundamentalist Christians acted when Europe was a true theocractic system.

The topic of the day is US government torture, not another one. Go ahead and start a thread on torture in other countries.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for you to clearly say US torture is wrong. You have said otherwise, apologizing for it. That makes one Christian on this thread apologizing for torture.

The survey is all the stats I need plus lots of personal anecdotes.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

We all know that personal anecdotes do not count in debates.

Where are your links of you deriding Muslim torture?