How Powerful Is Your God?

People put a lot of faith and heart into their beliefs. Into their God. It is not necessarily a bad thing to a point, but in my opinion, there comes a time when you have to concede to science and math.

How powerful is your God? Is he/she omnipotent? Can he/she do anything and everything?

Can your God change 5+5=10 to 5+5=11? This is where I draw the line, and cannot comprehend why others do not draw it here. No matter what you call 5, it is still 5. You can say oglebee + oglebee = sendreteyun. You can say whatever you want, but it cannot change. In other words:

If you add a this many circular objects: OOOOO to this many circular objects: OOOOO, you will get this many circular objects: OOOOOOOOOO. There is nothing anyone can do about that. I suppose God could make a miracle occur, and make one dissapear....but that does not mean that there were not OOOOOOOOOO circular objects to begin with.

This being said, I cannot understand how people can put their God ahead of the unmoveable. The unchangeable. It might be the only thing God cannot do, is change math. Call it what you will, but math and numbers are universal, and will never change, at least in this universe which we cannot escape.

So, do you believe your God has the power to change numbers? Is he/she really that powerful?

[edit on 12/13/2004 by Seapeople]

If we looked at G-d in a philosophical way...we could say many things about what may constitute such an entity.

We could say that the entity is humanoid, ancient and has a hand in all things...even the rules that mathematics were established on.

But we could also say that G-d IS all the things that exist, from the first moment that it all began.
In that case, the entity is formed according to the rules of the physical universe.

So...to answer your question...if G-d decided that ooooo + ooooo= oooooooooo, why would G-d want to change the rule already set down?
In the second scenario, where G-d is ruled by the nature of existance, then there are no alternatives.

I suppose it all boils down to how we perceive G-d...only then can you make an assumption as to how G-d can be omnipotent.

Personally, imho...G-d is all things in existance...therefore G-d is IN the mathematics and cannot change without pushing the delete button on the universe.

I am of the opinion that mathematics could not change in any universe. At least as far as quantity goes. I just personaly cannot see how it could be different anywhere.

Mathematics could very well be the same for the greys, lizards and whatever other intelligent life may exist in our particular universe (besides ourselves).

The only thing that matters is that we all agree on a 'universal unit'.
In this case (your o's added together), it should be fine...as long as the extraterrestrials agree on what constitutes a 'o'.

The way I see it, there is nothing we can hold up that is a physical object and call it completely 'one'. The 'o' is purely hypothetical and only exists in the mind, and so is dependant on our interpretation. I'm just not so sure that an alien mind sees mathematics in the same way.

Speaking of our own 'off the wall' interpretations...how about the notion that 1 + 1 =3?
I know it sounds ridiculous, but it is the basis for some esoteric thought.

In alchemy, for instance, it represents a combination producing a predicted result ( the process of turning lead into gold by adding whatever).

One could also say that a man and a woman 'combined' produce a child, making three.

As well, I've heard that the place where the 2 bars of the cross meet, a 3rd thing happens...much like the symbol of the Rosicrucians...where a rose grows at the junction of the cross.

There is a lot of myth associated with crossings...I know that crossroads are supposed to be like doorways into the 'underground.

Anyways...I like to think our brains are unique...and different than whatever intelligence is 'out there'.

Whatever we mean by 'o' is bound to be our idea only.

I imagine we'll have to wait until 'contact' before we'll ever know.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

What constitutes an "O" in completely irrelevant when it comes to math. For how much thought you put into that response, I am suprised that you don't understand it.

You can come up with any imaginary creature your heart desires. Then, come up with any imaginary world and life. They could have 5 toponatric ganzorilla lazor beam heliogapers, that weigh 36546.47368 (they dont even have to have weight we can measure or see on earth) earth pounds. Add five more, and you still have 10 of them. We can have 5 apples, app. 1/4 lb. Add 5 more, you have 10. you do not have to agree on a unit for mathematics to be universal.

Even if linear dimensions were skewed for another being, due to a dimensional plane we canot observe here on earth (note that I am not talking about the ever so famous on this board...dimension, I am refering to mathematical dimensions), if we could figure out how it was skewed, math wold hold true.

1+1 could never = 3...unless you secretly place another 1 in there without everyone seeing. In other words, you create an illusion.

[edit on 12/14/2004 by Seapeople]

i agree 1+1 will always be 2, no god has power over such laws

[edit on 12/11/2004 by cheeser]

I find the ----- of this topic morons. if God made math, why cant he change it?

gahhh.... ths stupidity of people sometimes.

God: I have made gravity, everything will now be pulled down
me: cool!
God: I am now going to change it, everything will be going up, instead of down
me: you cant do that! that breaks the laws of physics, u have to obey them, even if u made them!

this sounds ridiculous.... honesty... it does

Originally posted by yermom
I find the ----- of this topic morons. if God made math, why cant he change it?

gahhh.... ths stupidity of people sometimes.

God: I have made gravity, everything will now be pulled down
me: cool!
God: I am now going to change it, everything will be going up, instead of down
me: you cant do that! that breaks the laws of physics, u have to obey them, even if u made them!

this sounds ridiculous.... honesty... it does

Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift? If he can, then he isnt all powerful, if he cant, then he cannot do everything.

The discussion is about math, which is universal, and the same anywhere you can imagine. 1+1 will NEVER equal 3. Believe what you will, but its illogical and not founded on reason.

I see that the idea of 1+1=3 has met with unfavourable criticism and I am grateful for the determined effort to set me straight.

Believe me when I say that there was a time when I thought the same way as all of you.

But I don't anymore and there is a simple explanation why I don't.

I don't know what a '1' is...

I haven't held a '1' in my hand...ever...so if someone can tell me what it is I'd be grateful.

The last time I did think a '1' existed was in the Periodic Table...atoms were, for me, single inalterable little units. I figured electrons or protons to be a way we could count, add, subtract, etc... using REAL units. I thought this because I do count gamma and beta particles as a job...detecting radiation is all about the number of particles hitting an area of mylar on a metering device.

But the more I've learned about atomic structure, the less I feel that's true. Here's why I think like this...

An apple is unique...there's not another apple anywhere which is identical to the one I hold in my hand.

An atom is also unique, but less so...every hydrogen atom seems exactly like another until you begin looking at subatomic particles...the bits that make up the hydrogen atom. Upon closer inspection, we find that it is composed of a vast array of 'this and that'. Electrons, protons, alpha, beta particles all break down into gluons, muons and other quarky things that pop in and out of existance just to make up that one hydrogen atom.

So even an atom is a thing 'alive', vibrating and evolving...never at rest.

Furthermore...there is no such thing as a solid atom...they are only energy. There's not even a part of an hydrogen atom which has anything but pure energy.

That can't be the universal '1', then...so what is? What can you hand over to me, physically, that could be complete within itself?

You can't...because mathematics exists only in our minds and the rules by which the universe is built CAN change...all it would take is to have the glue that binds these balls of energy to come unstuck and everything in the universe would fly apart.

So...show me a '1' that isn't subjective and I'll agree that 1+1=2.

And btw...since we've decided to use logic in this argument, I find religion and logic still at loggerheads. I believe in Deity...irrational as that is...but I can't prove It's existance through logic, no matter how devout I am...it is a matter of faith just like that universal '1'.

[edit on 18-12-2004 by masqua]

[edit on 18-12-2004 by masqua]

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by yermom
I find the ----- of this topic morons. if God made math, why cant he change it?

gahhh.... ths stupidity of people sometimes.

God: I have made gravity, everything will now be pulled down
me: cool!
God: I am now going to change it, everything will be going up, instead of down
me: you cant do that! that breaks the laws of physics, u have to obey them, even if u made them!

this sounds ridiculous.... honesty... it does

Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift? If he can, then he isnt all powerful, if he cant, then he cannot do everything.

The discussion is about math, which is universal, and the same anywhere you can imagine. 1+1 will NEVER equal 3. Believe what you will, but its illogical and not founded on reason.

can man make a rock so big he cannot pick up? if he can, then man isnt very powerful. if he cant, the man cant do everything.
point being, God is in another dimension (not literally) of reality. we cant comprehend the power of God.

its like a 2d man saying its IMPOSSIBLE to have anything but length and width, and he has no concept of depth. point is, are minds are to weak to comprehend God.
when u can understand how big God is, then u can understand his power.
and so far, I no hes bigger than the universe.
but thats like asking a kid how big the world is, he will tell u its bigger than his house. no idea he has.

GOD can do anything. This whole arguemuement seems absurd to me. Whos to say that 2+2 cant = 5? Because of some greeks that lived a couple thousand years ago? Alot of times I hear that same arguement for the Bible. Because it was written a couple thousand years ago.

More importantly why would God change it? It seems good to me.

Can God make a rock so heavy he could not lift it? That has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard atheists make up. God doesnt have to lift things. He sais up and it floats.

Originally posted by Croat56
GOD can do anything. This whole arguemuement seems absurd to me. Whos to say that 2+2 cant = 5? Because of some greeks that lived a couple thousand years ago? Alot of times I hear that same arguement for the Bible. Because it was written a couple thousand years ago.

Show some evidence for a God, and then show some proof that 2+2 could equal 5. Hypothetically, a pink invisible bunny which rules this universe could have made circle-squares, but since there is no evidence for a all-powerful invisible pink bunny, and because circle-squares are impossible to make, it is illogical and pointless to believe in such things, because this is how the universe works, this is how it has always worked, and this is the way it always will work, with no evidence from any deity.

Can God make a rock so heavy he could not lift it? That has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard atheists make up. God doesnt have to lift things. He sais up and it floats.

No s hit. It's meant to show the contradiction in the Christian God which is stated to be all powerful, all knowing, and capable of doing anything. Its not meant to be taken literally.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Alec Eiffel]

My God is so powerful; he made stone he could not lift.

Alec Eiffel did you ever think that 2 plus 2 is 4 in this universe because God made it that way? Im sure if he wanted to he could have made it 5

Originally posted by Seapeople
People put a lot of faith and heart into their beliefs. Into their God. It is not necessarily a bad thing to a point, but in my opinion, there comes a time when you have to concede to science and math.

How powerful is your God? Is he/she omnipotent? Can he/she do anything and everything?

He/she is my father and mother and he pervades all; knows all; has all; and perfect in every way conceivable. He/she is the way. He/she is the truth. He/she is the order.

Can your God change 5+5=10 to 5+5=11? This is where I draw the line, and cannot comprehend why others do not draw it here. No matter what you call 5, it is still 5. You can say oglebee + oglebee = sendreteyun. You can say whatever you want, but it cannot change. In other words:

Why does God need to change it? We can do it ourselves:

Infinite + Infinite = Infinite

So, do you believe your God has the power to change numbers? Is he/she really that powerful?

Numbers are abstractions of the mind. The numbers are not the truth. The truth is the abstraction.