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Have New Scientific Discoveries Made A Believer Of You?

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posted on Dec, 25 2014 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

Yes, RNA and amino acids, the building blocks of life.

But no experiment that actually produced life.

I presume you are a scientist - is life, in your view, a phenomenon that just spontaneously arises from a certain mix of chemicals interacting under certain favourable conditions?

If so, why is it so rare and elusive? If not...what?

And what is your take on consciousness?




posted on Dec, 25 2014 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: smurfy
The OP did not really ask about alien visits, but given that alien life does exist, there is no room to be a skeptic of any 'visitation' at all in our limited terms because we simply do not know.


My take on the question is also based on the forum it's posted in. Otherwise this would be a topic for Space Exploration.

No room to be a skeptic when as you admit, we do not know?

Skeptic does not mean that when proof is presented a person will not then become a believer. I was simply answering the question honestly. I do not disbelieve but have yet to see proof to make me believe.



That's where I differ as I too was answering honestly believe it or not. It's nothing to do with romanticism either, but perhaps more to do with our use of logic versus the inexplicable as if one is an answer to the other, when it clearly is not.


We are not far apart.



posted on Dec, 25 2014 @ 09:51 PM
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Unique events happen all the time in the universe. Maybe life started here due to millions of years worth of unique random events. Maybe we should factor variable that into the drake equation. Then there be one variable that would HAVE to be zero. For you to get the outcome you want.



posted on Dec, 25 2014 @ 10:08 PM
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originally posted by: Titor86
Hello ATS,

I was just wondering if, given recent Scientific discoveries and the work done by Kepler and the like;

www.nasa.gov...

Is there anyone here who was previously a non believer but has now become convinced that there is life elsewhere in the universe?

If so.. Are you willing to own up and discuss what exactly tipped the scale for you?
What astounding revelation fell outta the sky and wiggled on my face?? Got to see it to believe it. Haven't seen it and you are already uncorking the champagne? And using words like "owning up?" I don't understand lol
Nah I'm just being facetious



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 08:59 AM
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originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: JadeStar

Yes, RNA and amino acids, the building blocks of life.

But no experiment that actually produced life.

I presume you are a scientist - is life, in your view, a phenomenon that just spontaneously arises from a certain mix of chemicals interacting under certain favourable conditions?


Yes I am a scientist and given enough time, a favorable environment and an energy source, the building blocks of life gain enough complexity that we call the result life.



If so, why is it so rare and elusive?


We do not know that it is rare or elusive. That is why astrobiology is so important. It seeks to answer that question.

Perhaps life -is- rare. If it is then no matter where we look we will not find it. It would be highly premature to say that it is rare because in the whole 100,000 year course of human history we only began to seriously look for other life within the last 100 years and only had the tools to probe beyond the Earth in the last 50 years.

It would also be highly premature to say that life is everywhere and we're surrounded by intelligent extraterrestrials.

We simply do not know how common even simple life is. However we know that wherever simple life can exist it does, even in very extreme environments. Once life gains a foothold and starts to spread it can ride out some pretty nasty things like an almost total lack of water, extreme heat and cold, high radiation in some cases, etc. All of which might indicate that life might be common in the universe.


And what is your take on consciousness?


Not my field, I suggest asking a neurologist.



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 09:13 AM
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originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: Titor86
Hello ATS,

I was just wondering if, given recent Scientific discoveries and the work done by Kepler and the like;

www.nasa.gov...

Is there anyone here who was previously a non believer but has now become convinced that there is life elsewhere in the universe?

If so.. Are you willing to own up and discuss what exactly tipped the scale for you?
Lol new scientific discoveries kepler and the like? How could anyone become believer when Einstein's GR imposes impossibility of ftl.
So untill GR hypothesis is dead and buried, it is unlikely any skeptic will become believer short of personal experience or contact with the et's.
Though it is a mathematical certainity that life exists elsewhere in the universe


Regarding General Relativity and the light barrier. There are ideas, some of which are being scientifically tested which might someday be practical ways to get around the light barrier.

NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program was aimed at fleshing out which ones were testable, which ones were dead ends and which might await future experimentation. Here's a chart of stuff they looked at with only the boxes in dark gray ruled out as dead ends:



Currently Miguel Alcubierre's warp theory is being tested. Google "miguel alcubierre" and "Harold "Sonny" White" and "Juday Interferometer" for more on this.

And who says that FTL travel would even be necessary? It could very well be that other intelligence could live a lot longer than our human lifetime, especially if it took the form of intelligent machines. What would a 100 year trip to a species whose members lifespans are close to 1,000 years? 10% of their lifespan. On Earth we know of people who have dedicated 10% of their lifespan to travel to and live in remote parts of the planet.

I never thought the travel argument held much weight because of that.

What I do think holds weight is that even for a more advanced intelligent, technological species, interstellar travel will probably never be a trivial matter. It will involve the use of huge amounts of resources so If they came here they'd probably do something a bit more significant and interesting than flying around our skies with flashing lights abducting people to give them anal probes and/or messages of peace.

edit on 26-12-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 09:24 AM
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originally posted by: PhoenixOD
Unique events happen all the time in the universe. Maybe life started here due to millions of years worth of unique random events. Maybe we should factor variable that into the drake equation.


It's already there "fl".



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 01:57 PM
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a reply to: PhoenixOD

sigh , shall i type slowly ?

as you claim the drake equatin is :

"not a matlematical certainty "

then you demnd that a parameter = zero

as any value other than zero = extra terrestrial civilsation

QED

so bac to the question : why zero ????????????????



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 03:54 PM
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originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: PhoenixOD

sigh , shall i type slowly ?

as you claim the drake equatin is :

"not a matlematical certainty "

then you demnd that a parameter = zero

as any value other than zero = extra terrestrial civilization

QED

so bac to the question : why zero ????????????????


Seriously ape , if you dont understand science or mathematics you should stop being so condescending and just sit this one out dude.

But ill try to break it down for you seeing as its Christmas, so maybe you should take your own advice read slowly.

The Drake equation is a probabilistic argument containing variables of an unknown value does not have guaranteed outcome, its not a certainty. It is an unknown answer..You can not be certain of the final value, therefore it is not a mathematical certainty.

Certainty:
Certainty is perfect knowledge that has total security from error, or the mental state of being without doubt.

At the moment all we can be certain of it that life exists here. So its a certainty that the last 4 variables are a value of least 1 and nothing else until we find out otherwise.

Quod erat demonstrandum as you put it.

Is 4 x the amount of apples i might have behind my back a mathematical certainty of it being any value above zero?


edit on 26-12-2014 by PhoenixOD because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 04:53 PM
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a reply to: Nochzwei

The speed of light limit doesn't make interstellar or even intergalactic travel impossible. All you need is to get as close as you can to c. Time dilation will do the rest. At 0.995c you have a time dilation factor of 10 and at 0.99995c it is 100, making you traveling at 100c from you point of view.

Those missions would be practically one way tickets (everyone you knew long dead when returning from your 100 ly trip ...). But I am quite sure you would still find more than enough volunteers.



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 05:18 PM
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Politics, the fear of telling you the truth, the fear of the mob. We are fear based and motivated society and the last thing anyone who has a lot invested has is to take on un necessary risk. So understand that yes in my opinion of course there is life out there, but I know through observation that I won't be told the instant it is discovered but slowly and in a controlable way.



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 08:38 PM
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originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: Nochzwei

The speed of light limit doesn't make interstellar or even intergalactic travel impossible. All you need is to get as close as you can to c. Time dilation will do the rest. At 0.995c you have a time dilation factor of 10 and at 0.99995c it is 100, making you traveling at 100c from you point of view.

Those missions would be practically one way tickets (everyone you knew long dead when returning from your 100 ly trip ...). But I am quite sure you would still find more than enough volunteers.


Pretty much the point I was making (though I did not mention time dilation). There is a misconception that interstellar travel is impossible unless there is a way around the light barrier but as you and I mentioned travelling a significant percentage of the speed of light could allow travel to nearby exoplanets within a human lifetime.

Now the amount of resources and energy needed to travel even 10% of the speed of light would take a planet-wide commitment. No one nation on Earth could achieve it.

So interstellar travel is at sub-light speeds is possible and we could probably do it with today's technology if we had a very good reason to (like a pending planet-wide extinction level catastrophe we couldn't prevent).

Somehow I doubt that if we travelled to another star system we'd waste time doing the things often reported with regards to UFOs.

We'd be putting down roots or if the planet were inhabited with an intelligent species establish open contact with them.



posted on Dec, 26 2014 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Emeraldous
Politics, the fear of telling you the truth, the fear of the mob. We are fear based and motivated society and the last thing anyone who has a lot invested has is to take on un necessary risk. So understand that yes in my opinion of course there is life out there, but I know through observation that I won't be told the instant it is discovered but slowly and in a controlable way.


Or.... you could be confusing the slow and methodical process of science uncovering clues to answers to the question of life in the universe with some conspiracy of gradual disclosure.



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 12:53 AM
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Good post, though I personally don't subscribe to GR in any way, shape or form. As far as I am aware nasa's bpp program was terminated years ago. Alien abductions are true but the individual concerned can thwart their probes and the rest of it.
a reply to: JadeStar



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 02:19 AM
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a reply to: PhoenixOD

you claim i dont understsand mathematics ?

you clearly do not understand the bloody english language , or mathematics

which bit of :


as any value other than zero = extra terrestrial civilization


did you not comprehend before constructing your apple holding strawman

and i will ask you one last time :

why zero ?????

its a simple question



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 06:43 AM
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a reply to: Blue Shift

Actually, exactly how do a bunch of "dead chemicals" as you correctly state come together to form life is a great question Blue Shift. No one really knows exactly how, but there is a controlled order of evolution of all things w/in the Universe including chemicals. The production of all chemical elements throughout the generations of stars as they are born, die and have their remnants dispersed into space only to re-concentrate to form new stars and planets is an evolutionary process and a fascinating one at that. The radioactive elements that heat the mantle of our Earth were created from other elements contained w/in many ancient supernovas. Indirectly, the incredible energies released from these supernova events via these radioactive elements provide us with plate tectonics, an essential requirement for a life generating planet IMHO.

Let's examine Gold to illustrate a point. The exact creation of this special element is subject to some debate. I find the colliding neutron star hypothesis to be very intriguing as Gold is relatively neutron rich, but it could have been created via standard supernova events too. Anyway, this Gold is blasted out into space in an extremely diffuse cloud along with a bunch of other dead chemical elements. Eventually, this diffuse cloud ends up as a solar system with rocky planets so our Gold has been concentrated somewhat. Now, our rocky planet which has tectonic activity also has some extremely hot water under very high pressure that dissolves and further concentrates the Gold, and then at some point it precipitates out to form the veins and nuggets we so highly prize. The point here is that this is an example of "dead chemicals" acting upon "dead chemicals" in concert to accomplish something that did not exist before.

Much as water will always take the lowest path to the Sea, chemicals also obey the laws of Nature. In certain special places, the Chemistry of Life can gain a foothold and these "dead chemicals" become self-replicating life. Chemical elements are the literal bricks and mortar of the Universe.

In answer to the title of this post, no the recent scientific discoveries have not made a believer of me as I've always assumed that what has happened on our planet has happened elsewhere. I'm also old enough to remember when some people would argue that there were absolutely no planets around any other star in the Universe other than our own.

Just because we do not happen to have irrefutable evidence that something actually exists does not mean that one can use that fact to argue that it cannot and does not exist.


edit on 27-12-2014 by pdawg67 because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-12-2014 by pdawg67 because: Not enough coffee, yet



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 07:02 AM
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originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: PhoenixOD

you claim i dont understsand mathematics ?

you clearly do not understand the bloody english language , or mathematics

which bit of :


as any value other than zero = extra terrestrial civilization


did you not comprehend before constructing your apple holding strawman

and i will ask you one last time :

why zero ?????

its a simple question


LOL you really love to live up to your name dont you. A demonstration of a "mathematical" principal is not a straw man argument (you're mixing maths AND English up now lol).

I'll sayit for the last time, you can not make any assumptions on the last 4 variables at this time. The only thing I 'insist' as you put it is that the values are unknown so could be any number. Because of this the equation is not a statistical certainty, its a statistical unknown..

While we are at it people should realize the drake equation is a probabilistic equation. So at the end of the day the a value of probability is never a certainty


If at this point you still fail to grasp how this works then you 'certainly' should just give up. Maths is not for everyone lol.







edit on 27-12-2014 by PhoenixOD because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-12-2014 by PhoenixOD because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 07:53 AM
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originally posted by: Nochzwei
Good post, though I personally don't subscribe to GR in any way, shape or form.


That's interesting. Why not? GR is pretty well established. It's kinda like saying you don't subscribe to gravity at this point.



As far as I am aware nasa's bpp program was terminated years ago.


It kinda still exists but it was broken up into smaller teams experimenting on various things.

Perhaps the most notable is the work being done by Harold "Sonny" White to test Miguel Alcubierre's warp drive theory using the White-Juday Interferometer.

Marc Millis, the head of the BPP program continues work on advanced concepts at NASA Glenn with the his Tau Zero company and the 100 Year Starship organization.

Others are still testing other advanced concepts as part of NASA's advanced propulsion research.

So yes, BPP is dead, long live BPP!

edit on 27-12-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Good post, though I personally don't subscribe to GR in any way, shape or form.


That's interesting. Why not? GR is pretty well established. It's kinda like saying you don't subscribe to gravity at this point.



As far as I am aware nasa's bpp program was terminated years ago.


It kinda still exists but it was broken up into smaller teams experimenting on various things.

Perhaps the most notable is the work being done by Harold "Sonny" White to test Miguel Alcubierre's warp drive theory using the White-Juday Interferometer.

Marc Millis, the head of the BPP program continues work on advanced concepts at NASA Glenn with the his Tau Zero company and the 100 Year Starship organization.

Others are still testing other advanced concepts as part of NASA's advanced propulsion research.

So yes, BPP is dead, long live BPP!
I do subscribe to gravity, though not in bending of space. You may want to chk my thread on bending or unbending of space.
As Alcuberie assumes space is bent, its bound end up in failure, though i'll chk this marc mills link with his starship program.



posted on Dec, 27 2014 @ 11:42 AM
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originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Good post, though I personally don't subscribe to GR in any way, shape or form.


That's interesting. Why not? GR is pretty well established. It's kinda like saying you don't subscribe to gravity at this point.



As far as I am aware nasa's bpp program was terminated years ago.


It kinda still exists but it was broken up into smaller teams experimenting on various things.

Perhaps the most notable is the work being done by Harold "Sonny" White to test Miguel Alcubierre's warp drive theory using the White-Juday Interferometer.

Marc Millis, the head of the BPP program continues work on advanced concepts at NASA Glenn with the his Tau Zero company and the 100 Year Starship organization.

Others are still testing other advanced concepts as part of NASA's advanced propulsion research.

So yes, BPP is dead, long live BPP!
I do subscribe to gravity, though not in bending of space. You may want to chk my thread on bending or unbending of space.
As Alcuberie assumes space is bent, its bound end up in failure, though i'll chk this marc mills link with his starship program.


Do you know what gravitational microlensing is?

You do know we have almost countless examples of space being bent/warped right?

There's a whole branch of astronomy which wouldn't exist if it weren't for gravitational microlensing.

We also have tested and confirmed the Geodetic Effect and Frame Dragging which Einstein Predicted. Google "NASA" and Gravity Probe B"

edit on 27-12-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)




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