Roswell for Dummies. :)

originally posted by: The GUT
I think it's fair to say that many of us who were intrigued with the ET theory would have been much less initially excited if we had known how many of the so-called witnesses were either proven to be lying or at the very least fantasy prone individuals.

Further, I would hazard that many who are still convinced haven't yet come to the realization that much of their enthusiasm is still, in part, based on those faulty testimonies. Because, once you start at Brazel's first report and then you do due diligence as a researcher in vetting ALL the prior testimony and throwing out the bad information---there's nowhere near the case left over that you currently believe exists.

Major Jesse Marcel: The Hidden Truth

In my book I publish for the first time excerpts from the military file of Jesse Marcel, excerpts which prove that although Marcel served his country honorably, he was not a credible witness and should not be considered as such. (Despite this fact, Stanton Friedman and other pro-UFO Roswell authors consider his every word to be gospel truth.) The file is extremely incriminating, for it it clearly demonstrates that Marcel had a penchant for exaggerating things while repeatedly trying to “write himself” into the history books.

Ironically, Marcel’s tendency to exaggerate was specifically noted in his military file by none other than the commander of the base at Roswell at that time, in a review of his performance that was signed just after the incident occurred.

Marcel claimed that he personally flew the UFO wreckage to Carswell AFB. He could not have done so, for he was never a pilot. Despite this, Marcel claimed in numerous interviews with Friedman and former National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt that he was not only a pilot but had managed to shoot down five enemy aircraft! If so, this would have made Marcel an “ace,” a distinction that certainly would have been noted in his military file. Instead, there’s no record of this or even anything close, and in fact it was General Ramey who specifically noted in Marcel’s file that because he was not a pilot, he would be severely limited in his career opportunities in the Air Force. It’s no wonder, then, that Marcel would later “blame” Ramey for the “UFO coverup” at Roswell.

Marcel claimed he had a bachelor’s degree in physics and even named the universities he attended. However, when I checked with those institutions, I discovered that one of them he never attended, and he never finished his education at the other. Curiously, while Marcel blatantly lied to UFO researchers such as Friedman about his mythical educational background, he never dared make such false claims to the military. Indeed, in signed statements contained in Marcel’s military file, he replies “none” when asked under oath if he had a college degree.
Does this tell us that Marcel knew his gullible UFO peers would never check on him anyway? Or did he even care? We don't know.

The book also notes that Friedman, even as of this writing, has failed to refute these devastating new revelations about his “star” Roswell witness. Indeed, in what can only be politely called lame rationalization, Friedman counters that military records are notoriously inaccurate. While this is sometimes true, the comment is irrelevant, since throughout Marcel’s file his signature repeatedly appears indicating that he signed off on its contents, certifying them to be true. Until Friedman and other pro-UFO Roswell researchers bother obtaining Marcel’s entire military file, they are in no position to make comments on it, let alone dismiss it.

In addition to disproving Marcel’s testimony, I also systematically dismantle and refute other Roswell “eyewitness” testimonies such as those of British Major Hughie Green, Roswell mortician Glen Dennis, Rueben Anaya, Frankie Rowe, Frank Kaufmann, Jim Ragsdale, and others. In short, no credible evidence from any witness has turned out to present a compelling case that the object was extraterrestrial in origin

www.csicop.org...

The following page presents a great timeline as well as various links and commentaries all neatly arranged on a single page and is properly sourced. It appears to be a paper from the SMU Physics Dept.

Link

Damnit GUT. You just killed it.

Controlling information and forming truths as one see's fit is as old as time itself. Consequently, over the past few decades that forming of truths seems to have taken on a new form. Or has it? Are they getting sloppier or we wiser?

"The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them." ~ Albert Einstein, letter to Sigmund Freud, 30 July 1932

For someone as bright as Einstein to make a comment as such then, I shutter to imagine the level of control existing now. More if looking on a timeline of sorts from Einstein to Orwell to perhaps even Aquino or Vallee and see how information is used and how it is held from the masses.

Lies wrapped in enigmas and sprinkled with taboos bake for 45 minute at 911F. How's it taste?

Great thread Gut.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

That might explain it, Arbitrageur, maybe Brazel DID mean to say that it was some kind of Earthly construction but NOT a weather balloon. But that's speculation. And it does not fit the press release which clearly stated that a 'disc' was found.

We do know that Brazel said that the area where the debris lay was about 200 yards in diameter, so say 180 meters. Now, given that sheep refused to cross the terrain, I think it safe to say there was more than just the occasional piece of tin foil, balsa wood etc. laying there. Unless sheep refuse to go past any unknown entity that lies on their tracks - I am not suffciently aware of the treats of Ovis Aries. Unless Brazel just exaggerated - but everbody who ever knew the man says that was totally against his character. So, when Brazel says "there is an area of 180 meters in diameter in which debris is laying around in such quantities that my sheep won't cross the terrain" - that is probably what he meant to say.

Let's assume it was a Mogul train. Say it was indeed flight 4, as the military stated. The same military that said it was a disc, but let's say the got it right this time. The length of the nylon line on which they attached the balloons, radar reflectors, microphones etc. was roughly 600 feet (~180 meter), so if it came down and spreaded more or less evenly, it could have spread over the area Brazel said it did. But it would not have made the impression of scattered debris: there would be a Mogul train laying there and only a fool would not immediately recognize it was of Earthly origin. I mean: he'd seen balsawood, batteries, microphones, rubber.. all very Earthly stuff. Mogul trains were built from common of the shelf materials, after all.

But even if Brazel did not recognise the materials as Earthly stuff - wouldn't the staff of the military base have properly determined this? We're talking about the head intelligence officer of the 509th Bomb Group and the officer in charge of the Counterintelligence Corps unit at Roswell, whom spent a day investigating this, picking up the pieces. Surely they would have recognised this as Earth made debris, read the "made in USA" stickers on the batteries etc. ? Surely they would have been able to see that all that lay there was balsa wood and fancy tape? Instead, they reported back and a press release was issued that a flying disc was found! If that was a fluke from the press officer, they should have fired him - but he remained in service. How come?

So, even when you only consider the first few reports, throw away all speculation - it takes a lot of gut (sic) to say that this was just a Mogul balloon train. Doubt. And plenty of it.


ETA: in the aforementioned interview he gave on July 9th, 1947, Brazel said he had recognised the stuff he found as very earthly RIGHT FROM THE START. Sticks, tape with flower motifs, tinfoil, greyish rubber. So, the big Q here is: how come he reported this "earthly stuff" as possible parts of a flying disk a few weeks later? A sudden case of amnesia? Or was his motivation the 3000 dollar reward? But surely, if he was able to see that the stuff laying around there was balsawood, tape and tinfoil - mostly - than he surely would have figured that the Sherrif / the military would come to the same conclusion on first sight too? So, why try to sell that bizarre story? Especially a man of his character - not the type to play a prank. I simply can't picture Brazel trying to pull of a stunt like that - redneck fun, so to say: "Oy, I may have found a flying disk, folks" (grin, wink, nudge)..? And how come the press officer issued a press release in which he states a flying disk was found AFTER TWO HIGH RANKING OFFICERS HAD INVESTIGATED IT FOR A FULL DAY?

Doubt.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: Arbitrageur

That might explain it, Arbitrageur, maybe Brazel DID mean to say that it was some kind of Earthly construction but NOT a weather balloon. But that's speculation. And it does not fit the press release which clearly stated that a 'disc' was found.

No it's not speculation, just read this newspaper article of the time:

Brazel press interview

Wilcox got in touch with the Roswell Army Air Field and Maj. Jesse A. Marcel and a man in plain clothes accompanied him home, where they picked up the rest of the pieces of the “disk” and went to his home to try to reconstruct it.

According to Brazel they simply could not reconstruct it at all. They tried to make a kite out of it, but could not do that and could not find any way to put it back together so that it could fit.

Note two things:

1. They don't call it a disk, they call it a "disk", even in other official correspondence. The quotes imply that they don't know what it is.

2. I don't see how any rational person can read about Brazel trying to make a kite out of the debris, and then try to infer there is some doubt as to whether Brazel thought it was of Earthly origin. He said it wasn't a weather balloon. He was right. But the fact he was trying to figure out how to make a kite out of it tells me a lot about the composition of the debris, and is consistent with the balsa wood construction of the rawin targets, which would appear kite-like. If this doesn't reduce your doubts to near zero, I don't really understand why you still have doubts.

Maybe you should read the Tim Printy article Mirageman referred to a few posts up. People who we would think should be able to recognize rawin targets were not able to do so. And yes anything unknown could be referred to as a "disk" at that time even if it looked nothing like a disk, which is abundantly obvious of you dig past the "disk" in quotations that what was being described wasn't anything like a disk...same with the FBI memo referring to a "disk". It clearly described something like mogul, even though they called it a "disk".

We do know that Brazel said that the area where the debris lay was about 200 yards in diameter, so say 180 meters. Now, given that sheep refused to cross the terrain, I think it safe to say there was more than just the occasional piece of tin foil, balsa wood etc. laying there. Unless sheep refuse to go past any unknown entity that lies on their tracks - I am not suffciently aware of the treats of Ovis Aries. Unless Brazel just exaggerated - but everbody who ever knew the man says that was totally against his character. So, when Brazel says "there is an area of 180 meters in diameter in which debris is laying around in such quantities that my sheep won't cross the terrain" - that is probably what he meant to say.

If you are suggesting that what Brazel said is somehow inconsistent with Mogul debris, I'm not following your argument. Again I think you fail to appreciate how much debris there was...it filled up three sacks! I see no inconsistencies with mogul here.

I mean: he'd seen balsawood, batteries, microphones, rubber.. all very Earthly stuff. Mogul trains were built from common of the shelf materials, after all.

Yes which perfectly explains why he was trying to figure out how to assemble the material into a kite, since some of the materials are similar to kite materials, and why he couldn't because it wasn't a kite.

But even if Brazel did not recognise the materials as Earthly stuff - wouldn't the staff of the military base have properly determined this?

Once again, read Tim Printy's article referenced by mirageman a few posts earlier, which destroys that argument for me. In addition to that, the answer is definitely "no". They had high security clearance, but they were not involved with nor familiar with project mogul so why should they recognize it as such?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

I just read your comments after having added an ETA to my post. Oh, well, one should not do that, I guess. Anyway, this is what I wrote:

ETA: in the aforementioned interview he gave on July 9th, 1947, Brazel said he had recognised the stuff he found as very earthly RIGHT FROM THE START. Sticks, tape with flower motifs, tinfoil, greyish rubber. So, the big Q here is: how come he reported this "earthly stuff" as possible parts of a flying disk a few weeks later? A sudden case of amnesia? Or was his motivation the 3000 dollar reward? But surely, if he was able to see that the stuff laying around there was balsawood, tape and tinfoil - mostly - than he surely would have figured that the Sherrif / the military would come to the same conclusion on first sight too? So, why try to sell that bizarre story? Especially a man of his character - not the type to play a prank. I simply can't picture Brazel trying to pull of a stunt like that - redneck fun, so to say: "Oy, I may have found a flying disk, folks" (grin, wink, nudge)..? And how come the press officer issued a press release in which he states a flying disk was found AFTER TWO HIGH RANKING OFFICERS HAD INVESTIGATED IT FOR A FULL DAY?

Note that I think it is safe to say - and we agree here - that Brazel DID say the stuff was of Earthly origin on July 9th. Which was after he had had a confrontation with the military, so it's not entirely clear if he was forced to say this or not. I also believe he found debris from a balloon about a fortnight before.

So, do you figure that he just went into town to try to get 3000 dollars? Was that why he whispered that "he might have found a disk" (and he did not quote it when whispering it I believe )? "Worth a try"? "You never know, maybe they'll believe it"? Stuff like that?

I dunno. Doubt.


Doubt.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
So, do you figure that he just went into town to try to get 3000 dollars?

How much is that in today's money? It's a lot more than 3000 dollars in today's money. I wouldn't rule out that someone could be interested in collecting a large sum of money, and my understanding is he wasn't that well off financially, so he could use it. I can't say for sure what his motivations were, but I think it would be naive to dismiss the allure of receiving a relatively substantial sum of money.

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Rendlesham, JAL flight 1628 , Belgium wave, Westall school, Tehran incident with F4, and Shag harbor are all far superior cases imo.

Rendlesham smacks more of psy-ops than ET once you dig beyond the surface. And the other cases are not as solid as they first seem. This is the problem with the whole topic. In 7 decades Ufology has never turned up anything solid to prove what Ufos actually are never mind the proof they are not of this earth.

a reply to: mirageman

About the nature of "evidence": we DO believe that three buildings can collapse into their own footprint because a plane flies into them. We DO believe that the Pentagon was hit by a plane that day. We DO believe that another plane dived into the ground and disappeared. All we have as evidence is what the officials tell us. Our own eyes can't believe what they see: no wing marks on the Pentagon, unshattered windows just a few feet away from the point of impact. No plane debris in Shanksville. Towers that totally collapse into dust and fall into their own footprint. Nonsense like that. We simply buy it because the Government says so. It's "scientifically proven".

But when an officer reports he actually TOUCHED the object that came down in Rendlesham forrest - we suddenly do not believe it and instead say it was the lighthouse a few miles further on. When our own military says that a flying disk was found -after having investigated it for a day- we don't believe it. But if they say it was a Mogul balloon, we suddenly do.

Why is that? "Almost all people are hypnotics. The proper authority saw to it that the proper belief should be induced, and the people believed properly.” ― Charles Fort

a reply to: Arbitrageur

So, let's see: a possible scenario would be that Brazel found debris (Mogul train?) which he identified as earthly stuff, a kite or balloon. It irritated him as his sheep refused to walk past it. So he and his seven year old son cleared away most of it and stashed it in a shed or something. A fortnight later Brazel is told by some neighbour that there is a 3000 dollar reward if "one of them flying disks" is found and reported. As he has to go into town anyway, he decides to see if he can convince the authorities he found such a disk and get the reward. He probably lamented about the nuisance, hoping that that might help to get him some compensation. So, two officers escort him back to the ranch. They immediately see that this is common debris from some kind of kite or balloon. They return to their base, report this.

And the press officer releases a statement that a flying disk was found.

Doubt.

a reply to: The GUT

I've been there, read it all (including publications only available in the Roswell area), seen the place.

In my final analysis, Roswell is like the JFK situation - so much noise has been created that the truth, mundane or otherwise, is likely to be forever obscured.

I do believe, mostly from documents received in the last few yeard from the freedom of information act, that something crashed at Roswell that was not of American design. Whatever it was, it was unusual, difficult to identify, and worthy of study.

I say we keep looking.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

And the press officer releases a statement that a flying disk was found

So why would this happen?
From the descriptions, All the material matches common material of that time.
Seems like the descriptions are detailed enough that if you did know about mogul, you could figure it out that it was.
It was definitely a different time.
Start of the cold war.
So none of it really adds up to 100%
Perhaps the press officer was simply told to make something up once they realized what it was. Maybe a disk was a little to over the top for the higher ups. You don't want to draw attention to your top secret stuff which is what calling it a disk would have done or did do. It makes sense that you would down play this to the most mundane thing.

My thinking is that "aliens" as a cover story during this time wasn't their intention but as the mythology and lore grew, the effectiveness of "alien" stories as a tactic became apparent. It becomes even more apparent even after it is revealed to be mogul, that the alien mythology gets even stronger.

What better smoke screen could there be than one that grows and distorts the truth all on its own? Its simple really. all you need is this one line to grow a mythology.

And the press officer releases a statement that a flying disk was found

Ambiguity is more real than reality.

The press officer did his job. Isnt a "press officer" in reality "PSYOPS"?

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Say you're right. Then the big Q is "why did Haut do it?" Or perhaps better: why did Blanchard do it - as Haut was merely acting on Blanchards orders. Why would the base commander of the base that housed the famous 509th Bomber squad require Haut - a close personal friend at that - write such rubbish - if it was rubbish - and endanger the reputation of the squadron, his base and both Haut and himself?

Clearly, a guy like Blanchard would have realised how this would look in the eyes of the public. Kenneth Arnold had just coined the phrase "flying saucers", the nation was in a frenzy about "flying discs" and Blanchard read newspapers and listened to the radio, one assumes. So he knew that anything that associated the find with "discs" would be interpreted as "something possibly not ours".

Why would he do that?

Even if it was some kind of cover story / decoy, Blanchard could have told Haut to write what was written just a few hours later: that some kind of weather reader reflector had fallen down. Or even "just wait folks, we're investigating this and will keep you posted". After all, this was 1947 and news did not travel as fast as it did today, so why the hurry?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Maybe the press release sounded like a good idea at the time. Obviously something needed covering up. By your own logic, if it were ET, then surely they were bright enough to conceal that? How? By claiming it was a flying disk! Nah, that doesn't work. It sure would get folk all abuzz and not speculating so much in other directions though.

And since you seem to like "maybe's," then maybe someone (when the phones started ringing nonstop and reporters were gathering like flies) decided it wasn't such a good idea after all?

Maybe later, it was all re-evaluated and caused thoughts such as this from 1952:

CIA, under its assigned responsibilities, and in cooperation with the psychological strategy board, immediately investigate possible offensive or defensive utilization of the phenomena for psychological warfare purposes both for and against the United States, advising those agencies charged with U.S. internal security of any pertinent findings affecting their areas of responsibility.

www.deeppoliticsforum.com...

edit on 23-12-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: The GUT
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Maybe the press release sounded like a good idea at the time. Obviously something needed covering up. By your own logic, if it were ET, then surely they were bright enough to conceal that? How? By claiming it was a flying disk! Nah, that doesn't work. It sure would get folk all abuzz and not speculating so much in other directions though.

So, what do you do when you are the Military and you get reports from a number of places that suggest that some strange (possibly alien) objects have crashed? Even more so if your own people (the military) have investigated it and report back that yes, there is something to it and yes, "discs" have "landed"? What if you already have found a number of civilians whom have seen the debris with their own eyes. Some even have seen something that suspiciously looks like a craft (a "disc" or "egg"). Some may even have seen the occupants? Do you shoot them? Of course not. That would be found out.

Instead you use a very old tactic: you tell the truth. You don't tell a lie as that would be found out sooner or later. And then you discredit the truth by telling another more plausible truth. Nobody lied, they simply told the truth in a peculiar fashion...

So, here we go: Brazel found a mogul balloon on his ranch. He stashed it away. Then, a few days later, a number of ships crashlanded near Roswell. Brazel heard the crash and some others did too. He discussed this with his neighbours, whom told him there was a 3000 dollar bounty. Maybe setting a "bounty" was part of the military plan, maybe it was a coincidence, or just a (planted?) rumour. However, eager to get his hands on that money, Brazel reported what he found. Which was exactly what was hoped for! The miiitary, already quite busy getting debris from the various crashsites then made poor Mac their stool pidgeon. So, they accompanied him to the site where he found the Mogul debris. They saw it was a Mogul train. They may even have known that in advance. So, they pick up the pieces and subsequently issued a press release in which they told (almost) the truth: "we found a flying disk that landed near Brazels ranch"

Then, only a few hours later, they degraded that truth by telling another truth: that what Brazel had found was not a disc but a balloon. Which was correct. Which they knew in advance.

So, now they had done a number of things: firstly, any reports on crashed discs would be laughed away by the public because they "knew" that in fact it had been a weather balloon. And if somebody found suspicious debris later on, they would immediately assume it was just part of a weather balloon. Heck, even today some believe that nothing happened in Roswell ..

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Yer brainz must be very tired, Forty, from those impressive mental gymnastics.

Targets AND a UFO crash. Brazel must've been one heck of a magnet!

I have an idea...Start at the beginning.

a reply to: The GUT

My brain is used to gymnastics. It's what I do all day and they even pay me for it

But on an even more serious note: the simple fact that I can offer a theory in which you can't shoot holes (not yet) and that still allows the possibility that an (alien) craft crashed near Roswell should make you happy, I guess. I've undressed your lady for ya. She does not have venereal disease after all. She's no slut. She did not deceive you.

So, please go back to being your own wide-eyed, breathless, intellectually tumescent self. You had disclosure and she is ravishing.

Love is such a beautiful thing.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Contraire, mon frere! I did offer one theory above. And I do like the questions you ask, but at some point you seem to paint yourself into impossible corners.

I don't mind elaborating more on my own and others theoretics. They certainly have their place in this discussion and our own personal investigation kits.

However, let's don't use them as arguments against the various facts and evidence that ultimately suggest that Roswell was most likely a non-ET event.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Instead you use a very old tactic: you tell the truth. You don't tell a lie as that would be found out sooner or later. And then you discredit the truth by telling another more plausible truth. Nobody lied, they simply told the truth in a peculiar fashion...

Is it really an old tactic to do this? Do you have any real world examples? I cant think of any.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
A story that snowballed after Friedman interviewed Jesse Marcel in 1978.

My first clue there was a problem with Marcel's story was when he said the "indestructible" foil was found in many small pieces all over the debris field. Somehow the idea of it being indestructible yet being in many small pieces posed a big problem for my logic.

What I found more surprising however is that more people didn't see the problem with that claim, and somehow inferred the foil has some magical properties and therefore must be alien. Even the properties didn't sound that amazing, Marcel said he hit it with a sledgehammer and nothing happened to it. He tried to burn it and nothing happened to it. I also hit a piece of foil with a sledgehammer and tried to burn it and nothing significant happened to it too. I don't know what he expected to happen.

That said I never got the sense that Marcel was intentionally lying, he just seemed to have cognitive issues which prevented him from recognizing the internal inconsistencies with his own story, and he's not the only one.

Obviously he meant that the alien craft was completely intact and that reality was shattered.

Merry Christmas!

a reply to: The GUT

I dont' know about these "impossible corners" - one day you'll tell me no doubt. For now, I hope you will enjoy your newly found freedom. It's almost Christmas eve..