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National Treasure... a freemason Red Herring??

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posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by spearchucker
Dont feel bad, I told the truth and this guy called me a liar.Now I dont know how he knew this check my thread (what I know).

Sounds alot like the situation were I live,dont ask questions though were all ignorant.

These kind masons will straighten all us ignorant people out though not to worry.


I came here with no idea of how the masons operate, now Im pretty sure Ive got it figured out


You guys are just plain creepy


This is what I said.




You said your Uncle, and brother in laws father were both Atheist, and Freemasons. This is a lie on someones part. An agnostic would not be admitted into Freemasonry, much less a professed Atheist.


Someone down the line was not truthfull, I did not say it was you.




posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Marquis
Hell all, It surprises me about how alot of you "defend" the freemasons organisation. I thought people on a site with the slogan "deny ignorance" would be a little more open minded, eh?


We defend it because we are trying to set you ignorant people straight, thereby denying ignorance.


I personally did not like the wording of this post. Telling people that they are ignorant is not what we aspire to here.


Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone. I just found it very audacious of him to insinuate that we are ignorant because we defend our Craft.



[edit on 8-1-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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I think the topic has swayed a bit off course.....but hey I don't have a compass. Freemasonry is so misunderstood and I felt the same way until I joined. I would venture to say that most of the "up-standing" members of every neighbourhood in every town in every free country are Masons, Shriners..etc.
You don't have to believe in God to become a Mason, you have to believe in a Supreme being...God, Buddha, whatever. The Catholic Church isn't a fan of Masonry, mind you they aren't fans of condoms either?
The only secrets Masons keep are the ceremonies, and the ways they identify themselves to each other. Anyone can vist a Lodge and ask questions, hell it's still a free country. If anyone here has any questions other than the ceremony or identification stuff....simply ask instead of reading obscure websites with strange references to Masonry. U2U me if you're scared to post your questions, I would prefer that the questions and answers were posted for everyone to read. I know this is way off topic from the movie we started discussing...can't wait to see it.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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Shush the mason firemen will come crawl up your arzz.they dont like people to think like that here.

they are completly normal folks and if you like will help straighten you out about everything.Yea completly normal thats why thay hang out on secret societies boards and flame everyone who asks questions.

Just assume they are only looking out for your best intrest and dont talk about or ask about freemasonry
yea thats it and after saying what you said dont let them find out any personal info.And they dont worship satan thats why there so open about everything

If you dont take my advice based on my experiance expect alot of comments like ignorrent,lier,and they have a niftey way of tearing everything you say and making you look like a complete chump.

I was the same way ignorrent lieing just plain stupid for bringing it up, talk about all the good things they do even though you dont know they did it .Like mowing the side of the street if it was a mason how do you know it unless your one too
Just assume it was even if you dont know unless ya know there secret hand signal.Maybe they wave around a hemlock branch while they do good deeds. But never never assume anything is amiss all the secrets are just a way to make people suspicious



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by spearchucker
Shush the mason firemen will come crawl up your arzz.they dont like people to think like that here.

they are completly normal folks and if you like will help straighten you out about everything.Yea completly normal thats why thay hang out on secret societies boards and flame everyone who asks questions.

Just assume they are only looking out for your best intrest and dont talk about or ask about freemasonry
yea thats it and after saying what you said dont let them find out any personal info.And they dont worship satan thats why there so open about everything

If you dont take my advice based on my experiance expect alot of comments like ignorrent,lier,and they have a niftey way of tearing everything you say and making you look like a complete chump.

I was the same way ignorrent lieing just plain stupid for bringing it up, talk about all the good things they do even though you dont know they did it .Like mowing the side of the street if it was a mason how do you know it unless your one too
Just assume it was even if you dont know unless ya know there secret hand signal.Maybe they wave around a hemlock branch while they do good deeds. But never never assume anything is amiss all the secrets are just a way to make people suspicious


The problem I had with you, was you did not ASK. You just said they did creepy stuff. Ask and you shall recieve. I even posted info in one of your threads because I was tired of waiting for you to ask.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by Jez
I don't pretend to know everything about freemasonry - but from the things I have read I have learn't a few different things.

1. When joining the lodge, men are promised secrets, help and respect.
2. Christian men join the lodge believing they are worshiping God (or the great architect), as they progress through the ranks the great architect is revealed and higher and senior leaders inside the lodge eventually find that they are worshiping Satan himself.
3. Men joining the lodge place a curse over there family and generations to come.

As for what reflector has to say I would agree:-
Some men may of heard things within there church or religious groups similar to the things that i have mentioned above. Perhaps National Treasure was a great movie - but perhaps it was a marketing tool for the freemasons - a tool that might dampen or soften what a freemason really does, a marketing tool for the masons that may make the sceptic join there society.



And here again, we have an example of somebody stating falsehood as fact.


In the first paragraph we have an admission of ignorance.
In the second, we have the falsehoods.
In the third, we have the decision that this guy has made about other people based on those falsehoods.


In answer to your statements I will say this:

1) You are only told that you will receive what you put into Freemasonry. Just like anywhere else, respect has to be earnt. Helping out your friends is no crime is it? You will discover that Freemasons "help out" their communities and local charities far more than they do each other though.

2) Freemasonry admits men of all Faiths. Each individual believes in his own god. There is no masonic god, either Satanic or otherwise.

3) That's just a stupid statement. You are suggesting that even if Freemasonry is guilty of something, the innocent will be punished.
Who places the "curse" over the families of Freemasons?



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:28 PM
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Like mowing the side of the street if it was a mason how do you know it unless your one too Just assume it was even if you dont know unless ya know there secret hand signal.Maybe they wave around a hemlock branch while they do good deeds. But never never assume anything is amiss all the secrets are just a way to make people suspicious


"Masons" do not hide their identity. The commonly wear masonic rings, tie tacks, baseball caps, jackets, car stickers, and various other insignias. Or people might know it because he has told them, in his dealings with the community, instead of conspiring to defraud good human beings on a message board.



[edit on 8-1-2005 by wiggy]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Jez
I don't pretend to know everything about freemasonry - but from the things I have read I have learn't a few different things.

1. When joining the lodge, men are promised secrets, help and respect.
2. Christian men join the lodge believing they are worshiping God (or the great architect), as they progress through the ranks the great architect is revealed and higher and senior leaders inside the lodge eventually find that they are worshiping Satan himself.
3. Men joining the lodge place a curse over there family and generations to come.


Apparently, you haven't "learn't" anything at all. Please do some real research on the subject before posting misleading information.

1. Nobody ever promised me (or any other mason, as far as I know) secrets or help. Only self-respect. Any other kind of respect must be earned, even in the lodge.

2. Freemasons only worship who they choose to. That never changes. Everyone has their own belief as to who the Great Architect is, and Freemasonry does not force anyone to worship someone they don't want to. Allegory and symbolism will nevewr change that.

3. No comment. That's just silly.



Perhaps National Treasure was a great movie - but perhaps it was a marketing tool for the freemasons - a tool that might dampen or soften what a freemason really does, a marketing tool for the masons that may make the sceptic join there society.


Are you saying that Freemasons had a hand in making the movie? As far as I'm concerned, Jerry Bruckheimer is in no way associated with Freemasonry. I'm sure he did research the subject, and apparently what he found was good enough to be portrayed in a positive light in his movie.

Even so, the movie reveals nothing about Freemasonry, positive or negative, regarding what masons do in and out of the lodge. It doesn't act as a "cover" at all! It only serves to perk someone's interest about the subject, to want to go out and find out what it is that these mysterious characters in the movie really do.

Hopefully they won't go looking in the wrong places.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:04 PM
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There you go.....the offer is there from many Mason's and yet the silly comments continue....ask and you shall receive. Remember, those who seek the truth are more than friends....they are brothers.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:13 PM
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ok look if i think sleeping with books and not telling your wife were your going is creepy so be it.If someone puts boards over windows and has secret hand shakes Im sorry me thinks its creepy.Now your problem is because i think its strange? most people i know would.

Were not talking about beaver and his friends jeez wally lets start a club house board up the windows have secret hand shakes
we are talking about grown men most people dont go to that much trouble over their religon

It is a free country you may disagree with me about masonry but untill you tell me why you have to be so secretive well im going to think its creepy.

One thing i have learned is this, not all lodges are the same yours may be legit i do not know because its secret right?

But untill you tell me why a person has to sleep with a book sculk around and act like a kid sneaking smoking i will not have a change of mind.

Masonry is represented to me personnaly through this lodge and me is sorry i think its strange.

And the whole idea of a secret club secret hand shakes and signals is a little bit odd.

If theres nothing going on tell me right now what do you do to make men better what exactly are the ceromonies for whats with the ancient looking symbols and why the hell cant i just walk in take part in them

If i see a church and want to go i show up one sunday and go this is what was told to me from several masons that you must be (invited)

now if im wrong or if this lodge is some splinter group i apoligize but if im right then masons are up to no good

and unless you start telling secrets and fully disclose the reasons behind ceromonys hand shakes strange symbols and just tell me why it appears your hiding something i mean if you guys are all out in the open why does it appear your hidding something, ive never heard of the mystery girl scouts secret oath or seen any girl scouts on here

Im not holding back why should you tell us all about it what are the benifits from haveing been a mason



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Which Symbol are you referring to? I will answer if you discribe it. Are you referring to the compass and square?



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:32 PM
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spearchucker...

Most North American masonic lodges are composed of less than two hundred members of which perhaps thirty are active and will come out regularly to the one or two meetings a month. One meeting, run to a certain ritual which is not much more than a form of Robert's Rules of Order, is a business meeting to keep the membership apprised of the workings of the lodge: paying of accounts, charitable works in progress, assistance to sick or distressed brethren, and the like. The second monthly meeting is used for the conferring of degrees. Before an initiate receives a degree, and takes an obligation of secrecy, he is assured that the mysteries are founded on the purest principles of piety and virtue and that any vows are not inconsistent with his civil, moral or religious duties.

Why are the rituals and ceremonies secret? Tradition, more than anything there have been times and places where promoting equality, freedom of thought or liberty of conscience was dangerous. Also, a lesson that must be earned may have a greater impact. Most importantly though is a question of perspective. Each aspect of the ritual has a meaning. Freemasonry has been described as a system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. Such characteristics as virtue, honour and mercy, such virtues as temperance, fortitude, prudence and justice are empty clichs and hollow words unless presented within an ordered framework. The lessons are not secret but the presentation is kept private to promote a clearer understanding in good time.

It is also possible to view masonic secrecy not as secrecy in and of itself, but rather as a symbol of privacy and discretion. By not revealing masonic secrets, or acknowledging the many published exposures, freemasons demonstrate that they are men of discretion, worthy of confidences, and that they place a high value on their word and bond.
But the true secrets of a freemason are not contained in the ritual. A freemason who is true to his obligation will not reveal the modes of recognition, but they are not truly secret; this is demonstrated by the number of exposures that have been published over the centuries. The secrets of a freemason are those personal, private, and lawful, aspects of a man's life that he may choose to share with a brother, a brother who will keep those secrets. This is not secretiveness; this is discretion. There is also that secret which is not kept secret but is only revealed to those who realize the happiness that comes from living a good life.

The symbols have all been taken from stonemasons' tools and endowed with certain meanings. The square "teaches us to regulate our lives and actions by the masonic rule and line, and so to correct and harmonize our conduct as to render us acceptable to the Divine Being, from Whom all goodness emanates..." The compasses "remind us of the Divine Being's unerring and impartial justice..."

Your average freemason has no interest in theosophy, the occult or world domination. He does have an interest in helping others and in making his community a better place; as a Scout leader, a Block Parent, a Heart Fund volunteer or just a good neighbour.

What attracts a man to Freemasonry? Every man comes, of his own free will and accord, with his own individual needs and interests. One man may join so that he can associate with other men who believe that only by improving themselves can they hope to improve their society. Another man may join because he is looking for a focus for his charitable inclinations. And yet another may be attracted by a strong sense of history and tradition. Many join simply because they knew a friend or relative who was a freemason and they admired that man's way of living his life. All who join and become active discover a bond of brotherly affection and a community of mutual support; a practical extension of their own religious and philisophical beliefs.

quoted from freemasonry.bcy.ca...
for more on symbols: freemasonry.bcy.ca...

I hope this answers some questions. Please view the above mentioned site as well as asking more questions. There is a LOT of info there and Masonic Light tends to be a walking encyclopedia of Masonic Knowledge.
Keep an open mind about us, and we'll be open about/to you.

[edit on 1/8/2005 by cotwom]

[edit on 1/8/2005 by cotwom]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by spearchucker
It is a free country you may disagree with me about masonry but untill you tell me why you have to be so secretive well im going to think its creepy.


Seriously, not everyone is THAT secretive, bro. You gotta understand that there is not one unified way for freemasons to act. If one wants to be private about his membership and activities, well that's his choice. The only things that masons keep private are their lessons, and that's mostly because of tradition. In the past, it used to be necessary to hide one's affiliation, and use handshakes and passwords to identify oneself with other masons. That has developed into the TRADITION masons use today.



But untill you tell me why a person has to sleep with a book sculk around and act like a kid sneaking smoking i will not have a change of mind.


Nobody has to. I have no idea why your grandfather would. There is nothing in masonry that tells a member to act that way.



If theres nothing going on tell me right now what do you do to make men better what exactly are the ceromonies for whats with the ancient looking symbols and why the hell cant i just walk in take part in them


Like we have told you before, we make men better by lessons taught through the use of allegory and symbols. Why don't you believe anyone? You can't take part in them because you have not petitioned to become a Freemason. If you did, then you could take part.

You gotta understand that THAT is what makes someone a Freemason. If anyone could just go and do that, then what would we have that is our own? Like any group of friends, we choose who we share our activities with. There's nothing wrong with that, if you wanted to take part all you would have to do is become a Freemason. There's no exclusion from Freemasonry, but someone has to demonstrate their desire to learn the lessons that Freemasonry has to teach.



and unless you start telling secrets and fully disclose the reasons behind ceromonys hand shakes strange symbols and just tell me why it appears your hiding something...

Im not holding back why should you tell us all about it what are the benifits from haveing been a mason


Cotwom and I just told you everything you wanted to know. That's all dude, I promise you.


[edit on 8-1-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by spearchucker

But untill you tell me why a person has to sleep with a book sculk around and act like a kid sneaking smoking i will not have a change of mind.


Most Masons I personally know don't sleep with with books except me, I'm reading the Halo books based on the Xbox game. (those are under my pillow)



Masonry is represented to me personnaly through this lodge and me is sorry i think its strange.


The first Masonic Lodge I ever came across when I was 14 was one that looked like a beat up, chipped white paint covered, Mexican Hacienda. Yeah. I diidn't think anything good could be going on in there.


And the whole idea of a secret club secret hand shakes and signals is a little bit odd.


They are a bit odd, but they are not used as often as people would have you believe.


If theres nothing going on tell me right now what do you do to make men better what exactly are the ceromonies for whats with the ancient looking symbols and why the hell cant i just walk in take part in them


Using my lodge as an example, we are allowing family and friends to attend Masonic meetings which are generally only for Masons. We're trying to remove that aura of mystery.


If i see a church and want to go i show up one sunday and go this is what was told to me from several masons that you must be (invited)


Yes you must be invited because the lodge is not open everyday, and Masons really only know when to attend.


now if im wrong or if this lodge is some splinter group i apoligize but if im right then masons are up to no good


It maybe clandestine, or just a particlar lodge of extremely uptight Masons. This however does NOT represent Masonry as a whole.

Best Wishes



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:54 PM
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I have a feeling that a lot of this misunderstood. My Girlfriend says I sleep with my cisco manuals, but that is just because I read the frequently.

My grand mother complained about my Great Grandfather being a mason, and spending a lot of time away from home. This is not because he was being secretive about it, but because he was gone a lot.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 07:59 PM
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My wife knows when I'm going to lodge, she's the one driving and making sure I don't look like a slob when I go.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by wiggy
I have a feeling that a lot of this misunderstood.


That's just the thing! It's really not as secretive and mysterious anymore as people think. They just want something good to talk about, but most of it is really just tradition, and masons have no reason to hide what goes on.

I think that if one of these guys who believe Freemasonry is one big secret conspiracy joined, they'd be duly and truly disappointed.



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by spearchucker


It is a free country you may disagree with me about masonry but untill you tell me why you have to be so secretive well im going to think its creepy.

If i see a church and want to go i show up one sunday and go this is what was told to me from several masons that you must be (invited)

Im not holding back why should you tell us all about it what are the benifits from haveing been a mason



Firstly dude, you don't actually have a right to information. We volunteer to give it to you. Why? Well, although you claim that Freemasonry is secretive, it actually isn't. It's private. There's a big difference between the two words. But even then, any man who meets the standard of believing in a Supreme Being and being morally just can join.
So sure, you can go into a church and not a Freemason's lodge at will. But the church is a public building and the lodge is a privately owned one. But even then, if you ring the lodge secretary, he will probably be more than happy to show you around the building.

Think about it. Do you know of many private buildings where you can just ring up and they will show you around?

Don't make the big mistake of confusing Freemasonry with religion either. It is not a religion. It may contain some spiritual aspects but it most certainly doesn't tell a guy who or what he should worship and in what way he should do so.

Freemasonry really isn't secretive. If it were, why do you think you got replies to your posts? Do you think that a secret society would allow it's members to explain themselves to you? And as you said youself, we show up quick. This is because we don't like seeing our names slandered and we want to set the record straight. Wouldn't a "real" secret society just ignore the jibes and let people carry on believing lies about them?

Don't get hung up on the "secrecy" aspect of Freemasonry. In the past we have had no choice but to keep silent and lot of people dislike it because they believe that we must be hiding something now. They think that just because historically we didn't say much, we are the same today. What they don't seem to realise is that admitting membership in the past could literally be signing you own death warrant. They can't accept the fact that, just like everything else in this world, Freemasonry moves on too.

You seem to have picked up a lot of wrong impressions about Freemasonry and it's up to you to search for the truth. If you truly want to learn about Freemasonry, this is one of the best places to start.

www.masonicinfo.com...

It's probably the best site on the web for dispelling some of the myths and conspiracies that surround masonry and is a must for anybody who wants to study the subject.

[edit on 8-1-2005 by Leveller]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 08:10 PM
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posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Are you saying that Freemasons had a hand in making the movie? As far as I'm concerned, Jerry Bruckheimer is in no way associated with Freemasonry. I'm sure he did research the subject, and apparently what he found was good enough to be portrayed in a positive light in his movie.

Even so, the movie reveals nothing about Freemasonry, positive or negative, regarding what masons do in and out of the lodge. It doesn't act as a "cover" at all! It only serves to perk someone's interest about the subject, to want to go out and find out what it is that these mysterious characters in the movie really do.



Sebatwerk, thankyou for illustrating Jez's point of the movie being able to be used as a marketing tool by the masons. It's great when the critics admit what you were saying all along.

As for the Jerry Bruckheimer comment, unless you know him personally, i suggest you refrain from making comments about his religious persuasion, or the amount of research or lack thereof that went into the movie. This is called speculation, and has no foundation in the world of fact.



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