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Why Bastardize Ishmael but not the Tribes of Israel? The binding of Isaac or Ishmael?

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posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 08:58 AM

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: Sahabi

2) Yahweh did not create. In Genesis 2, different words are used in relation to Adam. Adam is formed. The garden is planted, then restricted. Adam's blood was shed (lamb shed / only son) to divide the image. Eve was the weaker vessel and easier to tempt. Satan / Snake was made by Yahweh as a cunning deceiver. Follow the intent of Yahweh and your presuppositions must again change.

Oh yea sure. Yahweh says fairly plainly that He made man. "Who made mans lips".

Same said later "who made Orion and the Pleiades"?

Were you and some others get off track is in your total rejection to the point in time where The Almighty comes out by His personal name Yahweh. Missing that you miss all His other communications over the years to the prophets.

edit on 17-12-2014 by Logarock because: n

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 11:17 AM
OP. here i s where we get the problem of misinformation. Haggar was not a hebrew to begin with Sarah had no right to go against God and give her to abraham to bear a heir. Sarah was promised by God that she would bear him a heir. HER HERSELF he didnt say HAGGAR would do it.

Alot of islamist use this argument about Ishmail being born first but they fail to realize that God said SARAH would bear the chosen one. YEah technically ismail was the one born first BUT it ws not SARAHS FIRST BORN.

Also if you read correctly the ten commandments do not apply to NT covenant followers from what i understand. that was under the OT covenant,between God and the hebrew people.the OT explains they are for them specifically. New Testament covenant followers are under GRACE.

ALso Ishmail if you go by definition was a bastard,but to be fair so were some on the hebrew side too.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 11:58 AM
a reply to: yuppa

ALso Ishmail if you go by definition was a bastard,but to be fair so were some on the hebrew side too.

To be fair, Horus and Jesus were both bastards as well. How does that fit into the Ishmael mythology?

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 02:02 PM
a reply to: Sahabi

According to Genesis 16:3, Hagar was indeed Abraham's wife: "So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife (אֵֽשֶׁת־) took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife (לְאִשָּֽׁה׃)." In the above verse, Strong's Concordance gives word #802 נָשִׁים (ishshah) as the meaning for both words (wife) referring to Sarai and Hagar. According to this verse, isn't Hagar a legitimate wife of Abraham?

Not necessarily. Consider the word play in the translation of the translator but you must have all of the entirety of the scriptures to paint your picture. What God has honored as wife (united) is not what man has honored as wife (united). From the onset God united Adam and eve with the understanding that they are to be one for life. Sari had no authority to do as she gave Hagar to Abraham. What Sari did was to circumvent God's authority. Just as most people do today and have done in the past is not the perfect will of God and Is not what God honors.

God said that through Issac is the seed of promise. He did not say that Isaac was the seed of promise. The same was from Isaac to his son Jacob. Through Jacob was the seed of promise but Jacob was not that seed of authority. To show you that this is true is to realize that what happened in Abrams life also happened in Jacob's life. Jacob was given a wife by God to be Leach. Even though Jacob loved Rachel and claimed Rachel as his second wife, it was Gods choice to give him Leah.

Leah bare six sons of Jacob while Rachel bare only one son and the rest of the siblings were of the two handmaids Zilpah and Bilhah. Of the six sons of Leah was born Judah. As Israel (Jacob) lay dieing, he then gave the blessing of the seed of promise to Judah.

Gen_49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

So as you now understand the seed of promise was in various men and women but was not those men and women such as Abram, or Isaac, or Jacob, or Judah, but the seed was the prophecy of the Christ.

Back to bastardizing. You must understand that there is a perfect will of God and a permissive will of God. No one has ever lived the perfect will of God except the Messiah Jesus. Abram and Isaac and Jacob or Judah were all under the yoke of law and just because they did particular acts does not mean those acts were the perfect will of God. They were not a first class civilization by any means any more than we are today. To answer your premise, Ishmael was no more bastardized than any of the other bastards of the bible. If one was not in the grace of marriage then that also applies to all who were also not in the will of God. Marriage is a mockery today and adultery a common daily occurrence and is actually no better than simply having so called wives such as they had in those days but it still is not the perfect will of God.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 03:27 PM
a reply to: Logarock

Were you and some others get off track is in your total rejection to the point in time where The Almighty comes out by His personal name Yahweh. Missing that you miss all His other communications over the years to the prophets.

Ezekiel 13

13 Yahweh spoke his word to me. He said, 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel. Tell those who make up their prophecies, ‘Listen to the word of Yahweh.

3 “‘This is what Adonay Yahweh says: How horrible it will be for the foolish prophets. They follow their own ideas, and they have seen nothing. 4 Israel, your prophets are like foxes among the ruins of a city. 5 They haven’t repaired the gaps in the wall or rebuilt the wall for the nation of Israel. So Israel will not be protected in battle on the day of Yahweh. 6 These foolish prophets see false visions, and their predictions don’t come true. They say, “Yahweh said this.” But Yahweh hasn’t sent them. Then they hope that their message will come true. 7 Prophets of Israel, haven’t you seen false visions and predicted things that don’t come true? Don’t you say, “Yahweh said this,” even though I haven’t said anything?

Which ones is he speaking of here? We can't know. Would the true God preserve his word? Can the God of Love take as a thief, shed blood or make war on heaven?

Isaiah 24

21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

No. When Revelation states that the nations are deceived by Satan, they are showing you who the Father of lies is. Yahweh MADE Satan.

Genesis 3

3 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals Yahweh Elohim had made.

Elohim then stated this to man after the flood:

Genesis 9

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Yahweh shed Adam's blood to divide the image, then deceived Eve using Satan. He then shed blood continually against this prohibition. Who hung on a cross? Adam / Joshua / Jesus. Zechariah 3 tells you the day Satan was silenced and Joshua was dressed to rebuild the temple (Jesus / Adam's Body). Why did Yahweh do this? I believe him to be the higher mind of Adam. Satan is the lower mind, made by the higher mind to accuse Adam. Then again, we cannot know this for sure. Our presuppositions are theory at best. None of us can pretend to know, yet Genesis is clear on what I outline here. Yahweh is not a God of Love. He takes. The God of Love can only give. It is HIS will.

If you realize this view of Adam's walk to the cross, you find the plan of God from the beginning. Elohim seeks to save all nations (Rainbow) from the process. We could not be raised apart from yeast (sin) in the loaf (bread). There must be an adversary to overcome. For each of us, it is our higher nature working to overcome our lower nature. The reason we see Yahweh as violent, jealous, self-righteous and so on is simple. He is the one being raised as Adam's higher identity above.

No mention of Yahweh since Malachi 4. He gave his plan, then Jesus mirrored it in Matthew 10 by its opposite. Did Jesus come to make peace, or bring a sword? Sword. To who? The lower nature of mankind. Elijah is the fulfillment of Malachi 4 through baptism. They are parallel passages.

edit on 17-12-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 06:42 PM

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: yuppa

ALso Ishmail if you go by definition was a bastard,but to be fair so were some on the hebrew side too.

To be fair, Horus and Jesus were both bastards as well. How does that fit into the Ishmael mythology?

Actually. Mary was married and was a virgin when she conceived so No one knocked her up if you go by the story. It was a immaculate conception and therefore he was not a Bastard. Jesus was not conceived by sex with a man or sex period. which is a stipulation to be a bastard.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 07:17 PM
a reply to: yuppa


Right. I bet that's what Jesus told all his childhood friends when they played "Whose your Daddy and What Does he Do?"! After all, his buddy Horus didn't have a daddy either and his mom was "The Great Virgin", so why wouldn't anyone believe that Jesus' mom was a virgin too? Seems legit!

I know, I know, this thread is about the legitimacy of Ishmael in the Abrahamic religions, and thus, "God's" promise to Abraham and his children. The OP suggests that the text has been altered to look as if Isaac was Abraham's only son, which is obviously not true, according to the story.

But, my point is, the rest of us, according to the Bible, are all bastards. But, we're in good company as both Jesus and Horus were also fatherless bastards. According to Pauline Christianity, God has adopted us "gentiles" through his son's spilled blood, or some such thing.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 09:07 PM
What I find hard to believe is that so many people cast so many aspersions on the Prophet Abraham. And by doing so, on God's decree. What people assert is not fitting for a person chosen of God. God could have chosen anyone, but surely he chose the best. You all know good people; do good people take mistresses, or do they get married? Don't forget God -All knowing - All Seeing would not be happy by such behavior, just as any of you wouldn't.

So, think about someone, chosen by God, with the highest morality, integrity and strength of will...remember he is the believer in his time, there isn't anyone else. Think about the character of such a man, before you start ascribing what you read in a book that could be right, but could also be wrong.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 09:48 PM
a reply to: Sahabi

You cannot pick random verses and derive meaning without giving more insight to the entire text itself. For goodness sake look at Genesis 16:2

so she (Sarah) said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said.


Sarah did not have faith that God was going to bless their marriage with a child. If she would have just chilled out and not DECEIVED Abram into sin, than maybe ISIS wouldn't exist. (Ishmael's descendants)

What if by Abram and Sarah's sin, they created Ishmael who also HAS to be blessed because God promised that all Abrams descendants were to be blessed and numerous, but by sinning started the religion that would come from the east to destroy Israel and start Revelation.

Jesus was put into the womb of Mary by God and this was proven by his perfection.
I don't know about all these modern attempts to make contact with a dominant alien species or UFO. To me it seems like they have been trying to contact us and we are too blind to see that Jesus is that. Maybe this next dimension that NASA is trying to find is some link to the spiritual world. After all we are bound by time and wormholes change the properties of time. And then there is God's realm. Time does not confine eternity.

The Bible talks about a spiritual realm in between Heaven and Earth..

IGenesis 28:12New International Version (NIV)
12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

Shoot maybe Christopher Nolan was onto something with Interstellar.

The pineal gland feels so connected to this state too, what if Horus is satan deceiving a lot of people into the idea that the Pineal gland (Third Eye) is supposed to be used for power and sinful nature? cough cough illuminati, but in reality it is a beautiful creation by God as a link to the spiritual realm.

But at this point I'm just playing what if and making way to many random connections_javascript:icon('

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 10:00 PM
a reply to: alwayslearning33

Sarah did not have faith that God was going to bless their marriage with a child. If she would have just chilled out and not DECEIVED Abram into sin, than maybe ISIS wouldn't exist. (Ishmael's descendants)

Stupid damned women!

What was God thinking when he created them?

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 11:56 PM

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Sahabi

These were given as types. Ishmael represents the child of the flesh, the natural man. This is also Esau (who was 'hated' God does to literally hate people, but this is an allegory), who's other name is Edom, which is the exact word Adam. It means red, ruddy, earth, blood... these are all speaking of the flesh. The older son was always the heir in those days. Esau vs. Jacob, Ishmael vs. Isaac, Cain vs. Able.

[Gal 4:22-31 KJV] 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Leah is the same story, the veiled bride hiding the truth. She represents the veil of flesh. Or the Carnal Mind

Carnal=Flesh it the same word which is Sarx in Greek
[Rom 8:7 KJV] 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The law of God is not the Law of Moses the Servant but the Law of the Spirit

2 Cor 2: But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their mind

A selection of Flesh vs. Spirit
[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[Jhn 6:63 KJV] 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
[Rom 8:5 KJV] 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[Gal 3:3 KJV] 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Here is the contrast between:

the natural=Adam/Edom/Esau/Ishmael/Hagar/Literal Jerusalem/Law of Moses

the Spiritual=Christ/Israel/Jacob/Isaac/Sarah/Heavenly Jerusalem/Law of Spirit-Christ

[1Co 15:21-22, 42-53 KJV] 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ... 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

The kingdom of this world vs the kingdom of heaven

[Rom 8:7 KJV] 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yes more symbolism about the resurrection~Jesus and all that that encompasses
good to see

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 01:21 AM
a reply to: windword

Just a what if man. Definitely not stupid D***** women though, thank God he created women

Stupid damned Satan for being slick, but if The Earth was created as a punishment for me, Id probably be pretty bitter too. Just really curious on where Horus was when the Red Sea took out his entire fleet.

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 01:41 AM

originally posted by: yuppa
the ten commandments do not apply to NT covenant . .

The commandments were given to the "children of Noah" – that is,
ALL OF HUMANITY . period-no debate
The jewish laws are the 613 laws, incompassing the sacrificial 'laws'
This means the people after the flood are ALL CHOSEN !
#2 as I stated before,

originally posted by: ToneDeaf
We are ALL chosen
lest none of us would be here.

BTW, Sabbath day of rest was meant for ALL PEOPLE too,
( Gods words)
Then why is it that jews continue to manipulate others into breaking
this commandment ! ? example :]story/news[/
God did NOT say to manipulate others.
. . . . but then, the devil never listens.

The ones who have claimed to be the
light onto the world are :
God and also lucifer, and jews.
Take your pick

Personally I will go with God, and call the others
impersonators, "those that wish they were but are not".
Sort of explains why the hebrew bible (the OT), the jewish version,
refers to the creator, as plural (godS), thinking that they themselves are . . . Lol ;
By definition that is what we call UN-humble, narcissistic, psychopathical.
Denial, full of ones self is NOT a healthy place to be at.

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 08:28 AM
a reply to: alwayslearning33

Just really curious on where Horus was when the Red Sea took out his entire fleet.

Like the Elohim on that infamous day when Adam and Eve ate the apple, He was out playing golf with his archangel buddies and left his cell phone on the kitchen table. He left Lucifer, in a snake suit, in charge.

edit on 18-12-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 08:34 AM
double post

edit on 18-12-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 11:15 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

There are rumors out there that Mickey Mouse slept with Minnie's best friend. More credible than the Abraham story.

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 11:55 AM
a reply to: ToneDeaf

Jesus says, you don't have to worry about the rest of the commandments if you can fulfill these: Love your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself.

The nation of Israel was obliged to obey the laws of their nation in order to reap God’s blessings or curses. It was based on their obedience. The New Covenant is based on grace, not obedience. The two laws are completely different, so the way they apply to us are different.

Today, we do not live under the Mosaic covenant.(like the moses children justification you give) We don't have all the laws that pertain to dietary and sacrificial things because Jesus did away with those laws. We don’t have the punishments proscribed in the law because that was for their judicial system in that nation.

the Old Testament law was given as a contract to Moses and was therefore very unique and particular for the nation of Israel. However, there are some things stated in there that go beyond the law and are above the temporal role of the Mosaic Law. They seem to be universals and are therefore in the New Testament.

SO no. You are wrong on your interpretation. The topic has been researched quite well and im pretty sure what im talking about.

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 12:07 PM

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: ToneDeaf

The topic has been researched quite well and im pretty sure what im talking about.

The Klingons are a humanoid warrior species that originated from the planet Qo'noS (pronounced Kronos), an M-class planet. One of the major powers of the galaxy, the Klingons were a proud, tradition-bound people who valued honor and combat. The aggressive Klingon culture had made them an interstellar military power to be respected and feared.

I've also done my research and I'm pretty sure I believe everything that I read …

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 12:42 PM
a reply to: windword

No doubt Satan is in charge of the Earth. It is his eternal punishment. He possessed a position of leadership in Heaven and was cast out forever because of his sinful desire for power, the same sinful desire for power that can be seen so clearly in politics today. It makes since because Satan rules this world!

It is no accident that in Genesis 3, shortly after God created Adam and Eve, Satan appeared on the scene as the serpent in the garden. The earth was—and still is—his domain. He had been cast down to the earth before man's creation took place.

You have to understand that further on in the Bible you realize that Genesis most definitley was not the beginning.

posted on Dec, 19 2014 @ 12:23 AM
a reply to: AlephBet

The nations ARE deceived as stated in Revelation. Christ is the Son of God.

Perhaps I may be deceived,... and I concede that I may be wrong,... for many times my closely held truths have shattered into petty foolishness!

All is One and One is All. What you pay homage to as a Father, Mother, and Son is actually the worship of the primordial separation of the One into reality's existence. The unity of One is the Kingdom of God, whereas the separation into parts, figures, and roles (Father, Mother, Son) is the spiral into illusionary separation.

What you look for in a redeemer, savior, atoner, scapegoat, sacrificial lamb, or even the recipient of a pointed finger is actually the denial of what is,... and a forfeiture of one's own responsibility, power, and personal relationship/connection to All that is One.



I do not discount the many instances of profound wisdom, spiritual insight, moral/ethical teachings, or the literary splendor of the Bible,... nor do I ignore the instances of fear, separation, racism, and wickedness contained within its pages,... however, theologically, I do not believe or agree with the deifications presented in the exoteric or esoteric divinities of the Bible. I even understand the theory and belief you present, but I do not agree.

1) Yahweh is not God. He is running from God and trying to subvert the will of God.

I fully agree that Yahweh is not God, but instead, Yahweh is the God of Israel who seeks the usurpation of Elyon and El. Yahweh is the son of El.


When you read God and the Spirit of God, it is properly translated Elohim and Ruach Elohim. From this, your presuppositions must then change about Yahweh.

My presupposition is that this is a revised re-telling of the original polytheistic paganism of the Canaanite mythology featuring El (Father), Asherah (Mother), and Baal-Hadad (Son),... of which is a falling away from the One that is All.


2) Yahweh did not create. Follow the intent of Yahweh and your presuppositions must again change.

Of course Yahweh did not create, for Yahweh was created by man. The division of the One is not something I demonize, because all division is temporary, superficial, and illusionary. In fact, the illusion of separation and division is needed for the very concept of subjective and relative experience to exist. When we understand that physical separation is an illusion, we transcend to One. When we understand that Ego is a type of psychological separation, we transcend to One. There is no winning in fighting, there is only transcendence through understanding and realization.


3) In Genesis 9, Elohim (Father) told Yahweh this:

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Who shed the first blood? Yahweh.

In order for there to be differentiation amongst the One,... the mechanism of 'Change' permeates all. The shedding of blood and splitting of images is the result of differentiation, not the cause of it. All is subject to change and nothing is permanent. 'Change' is not a transition from one thing into another thing,.... 'Change' is the superficial transition of One into the same One.


Again, we return to our own presuppositions. I just told you a very different story than the one you think you know.

You have only told me your personal, relative, and subjective opinions, just as I have told you my personal, relative, and subjective opinions


Based on this, we can see every fallen character arising from the shedding of Adam's blood. Why? Yahweh divided the image, thereby causing the fall of man.

The only fall of man was the blind enchantment and enslavement to our own Egos. Mankind is not fallen, mankind is an emanation of the One with an immanent indwelling of the One. All is One.


By this, mankind is free from Yahweh. The image can be restored

The image does not need to be "restored," because the image only experienced superficial division. All is One. As Shakyamuni Buddha taught; we are free when we are empty and free from attachments.


All of what you know about Yahweh as Lord can be summed up in the knowledge of the Demiurge.

Not only the Demiurge, but through the Canaanite religions.


Who goes to hell in the end?

No one. Hell is not a physical place, Hell is a mental, emotional, inner, and outer state of negativity and suffering based upon the enslavement to Ego, selfishness, apathy, and fear. Sheol is the figurative "common grave of man",... Gehenna is the sacrificial pit and garbage dump of Jerusalem,... while Tartarus and Hades are from Greco-Roman mythology.


You speak of fallen and divided, but there is nothing except the cyclical spiraling unfoldment (change) of the One, from the One, to the One, for the One. All is a beautiful, grand, and glorious emanation from the One.


Why is Ishmael marginalized and bastardized but not Gad, Asher, Dan, and Naphtali? Did Ishmael or Isaac participate in Abraham's mock sacrifice?

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