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Why Bastardize Ishmael but not the Tribes of Israel? The binding of Isaac or Ishmael?

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posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 11:21 PM

The great patriarch, Abraham (Abram), had a wife named Sarah (Sarai). By the time Abraham was in his mid-80's, Sarah still hadn't bore him any children.

For the fear of passing their inheritance on to an unrelated man, Sarah gave Abraham her personal slave/handmaiden, Hagar, to serve as a surrogate. Abraham, at the age of 86, sired his first son, Ishmael, through his relations with Hagar.

14 years later, at the age of 100, Abraham sired his second son with Sarah, who was named Isaac. As Isaac matured, Sarah became intolerant of Abraham's first-born son Ishmael. At the insistence of Sarah, Abraham expelled Hagar and Ishmael from the household.

Although Abraham had become prosperous through his herds, he sent his eldest son off into the desert with nothing more than a skin-flask of water and meager food provisions. Abraham gave his family no cattle, wealth, nor inheritance as they journeyed into the wilderness. This, in my opinion, was a cruel and heartless act of Abraham.



Ishmael, first-born son of Abraham, has been marginalized and bastardized by Judaism and Christendom. A major reasoning is that Ishmael was born "out of wedlock" to Sarah's slave; Hagar.

If we yield to this reasoning, then surely we must apply it to Jacob. If we bastardize and marginalize Ishmael for being the son of a slave/handmaiden, then we must do the same to some of Jacob's children.

Jacob is the father of the 12 Tribes of Israel (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin). Jacob took the sisters Leah and Rachel as wives and sired children with them both. He also fathered children with the slaves/handmaidens of his wives. Zilpah, slave of Leah, gave birth to Gad and Asher. Bilhah, slave of Rachel, gave birth to Dan and Naphtali.

If we use the standard reasoning for Ishmael's bastardization, we must similarly bastardize Gad, Asher, Dan, and Naphtali. The 12 Tribes of Israel then become the 8 Tribes of Israel. But we see this isn't so,... why?

Furthermore, in Genesis 16:3 we read that Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife. Therefore, Hagar's status of slave was elevated to that of wife. Hagar was the second wife of Abraham and Ishmael was his first son.

posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 11:21 PM

In Genesis 22, we read about the Binding of Isaac. In this event, God tests the faith of Abraham by asking him to do what the followers of Moloch have been known to do; sacrifice his son. Abraham faithfully and dutifully obeys the words of his God. He sets up an altar, gathers firewood, and binds his son. Just as Abraham lifted his hand to sacrifice his son, God interrupts the ordeal, spares the son, and provided a ram to sacrifice instead.

In verses 2, 12, and 16 of Genesis 22, we are given the phrase, "your son, your only son," in reference to Abraham's mock sacrifice. This is very telling, because this phrase can only apply to Abraham's firstborn son Ishmael. The only time that Abraham had an "only son" was prior to the birth of his second son Isaac. Ishmael was the only son, which changed at the birth of Isaac.

In Genesis 21:13, God affirms that Ishmael is Abraham's son. Abraham, himself, also acknowledges Ishmael as his son. God nor Abraham never labelled Ishmael as illegitimate or a bastard.

As many Islamic scholars and lay-Muslims believe, it appears as though Ishmael was the son who was to be sacrificed, not Isaac.



Blessings BEFORE the birth of Isaac

Genesis 15

5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga#es and Jebusites.”

(Ishmael is the offspring and descendent of Abraham)

Genesis 16

9 Then the angel of the Lord told her [Hagar], “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”

(Direct blessing for Ishmael)

Genesis 17

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

(Ishmael is a descendent of Abraham. Ishmael and his descendants have observed the circumcision throughout the centuries through the Arabized-Arabs and Islam)


Blessings for Ishmael

Genesis 21

13 I will make the son of the slave [Ishmael] into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”

18 Lift the boy [Ishmael] up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”


Blessings of the mock-sacrifice

Genesis 22

15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

Regarding Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael, and Isaac,... what do you think?

Should Ishmael remain marginalized and neglected by Judaism and Christianity? If yes, by what basis?

Are the blessings for Ishmael or Isaac? Why and why not?

edit on 12/16/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 11:33 PM
a reply to: Sahabi
Blessings for both, and no marginalization or bastardization needed for Ishmael as far as I'm concerned, God promised to bless him and his, and has. From Genesis 17:

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” (‭Genesis‬ ‭17‬:‭20-21‬ NKJV)

The offspring of Ishmael did pretty well in the Bible...and since, apparently.


posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 11:46 PM
a reply to: Praetorius

Hello Praetorius, thank you for weighing-in.

Why did Isaac receive the covenant and promise to inherit the land of Canaan, where in Genesis 17 we see that Ishmael participated in the covenant by circumcision while Isaac wasn't born yet? It would appear that such an inheritance would be given to the first-born Ishmael, who participated in the original circumcision covenant.

Why is Isaac called "only son" during the sacrifice event?

This sounds like marginalization to me:
"Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.” Genesis 21:10

It appears as though there was a "write-in" edit to cast favor upon Isaac instead of Ishmael.

edit on 12/17/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 12:37 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

I enjoy reading your post. Well written.

Abraham's first born was not with his wife. God promised Abraham and Sarah they would have children and their first born was Issac - a blessing on upon Abraham and his wife.

IMO - I also believe God saw something in Issac that he did not see In Ishmael.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 12:41 AM
The gist of the story and the lesson to be learned from it? You asked why?.. Here it is.

God told Abraham he would have a son by SARAH, not Hagar or any other woman. God told Sarah the same thing, Sarah laughed "I'm to old"... "is anything impossible for the Lord?" God already had a plan for Abraham and Sarah. Time passed and apparently so did their faith in gods promise.
It was not god that gave Hagar to Abraham, it was Sarah. God never told Abraham or Sarah to do this. No place did god mention having a son by any other woman. It was their lack of patients and disbelief that lead to the birth of Ishmael. Which is why we have these issues now days with his descendants arguing over who was "chosen" of Abraham.
Yes, Ishmael was "blessed" but not "chosen" ...big difference in the scheme of things, passed, present and future.
God's promise was that Sarah was to give birth to Abraham's son. There is a much farther and deeper reason for why it had to be Sarah.... You will not find Ishmael in the linage of Jesus Christ.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 02:35 AM

originally posted by: murphy22
Yes, Ishmael was "blessed" but not "chosen" ...big difference in the scheme of things, passed, present and future.

Not to rain on your parade, but we are all chosen
lest none of us would be here.

#2 Sabbath day of rest was meant for ALL PEOPLE too,
( Gods word in Genesis)
Then why is it that jews continue to manipulate others into breaking
this commandment ! ? example :]story/news[/
God did NOT say to manipulate others.
. . . . but then, the devil never listens.

. . . . . . . .

edit on 17/12/14 by ToneDeaf because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 02:42 AM
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Hey there DeathSlayer. Thanks for the encouraging words

"Abraham's first born was not with his wife."

According to Genesis 16:3, Hagar was indeed Abraham's wife:

"So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife (אֵֽשֶׁת־) took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife (לְאִשָּֽׁה׃)."

In the above verse, Strong's Concordance gives word #802 נָשִׁים (ishshah) as the meaning for both words (wife) referring to Sarai and Hagar.

According to this verse, isn't Hagar a legitimate wife of Abraham?

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 03:08 AM
a reply to: murphy22

Thanks for contributing to the discussion murphy22!

God told Abraham he would have a son by SARAH, not Hagar or any other woman.

Please correct me if I am wrong, besides vague mentions of "offspring," the first mention of a promised son to Abraham occurred in Genesis 15:2-5

2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

God did not mention Sarah nor any woman, He simply told Abraham that " a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir."


God told Sarah the same thing, Sarah laughed "I'm to old"... "is anything impossible for the Lord?"

Please correct me if I am wrong, but according to Genesis 17:15-22, Abraham did not receive promise of a son through Sarah until after the birth of Ishmael.


It was not god that gave Hagar to Abraham, it was Sarah. God never told Abraham or Sarah to do this.

If this is correct, can we say the same for Jacob/Israel and his relations with the slaves/handmaidens Zilpah and Bilhah? Do we then marginalize Gad, Asher, Dan, and Naphtali?

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 05:05 AM
Hi Shabi ,good thread . It (the bible) can vary from impossible to simple to understand .It's about what key you use to understand it .

Luke 24:13-35New International Version (NIV)

On the Road to Emmaus

13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third daysince all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him,and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

So lets look at the creation of man and his wife as it should reflect what God was up to in relation to Jesus . God makes a wound on Adams side to get him a wife .Same for Jesus as the Church is the bride of Christ . If you or anyone has a hard time trying to figure out scripture ,all you have to do is put Christ in the equation and it should help . a reply to: Sahabi

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 05:09 AM
a reply to: ToneDeaf

Interesting article! I had no idea that any police department would be so open-minded as to learn Jewish etiquette in an effort to better serve their local community.

It is my opinion that if there are any "Children of God," all of us are Children of God. If there are any "Chosen People," we are all Chosen People. I do not believe that lineage, ancestry, tribe, ethnicity, nationality, or religious belief places any above another, it is only the content of our emotions, thoughts, intentions, words, and actions that distinguish us as individuals,... or as Martin Luther King Jr. put it; the content of our character.


posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 05:22 AM
Abraham was a sheep. He obviously could not think for himself, he was a coward too. I guess the "god" in the bible wanted someone who would be blindly obedient so the working class he would produce would be easier to subdue. Of course, if anyone did the right thing and told this "god" where to go when told to kill their only child, that would show strength of spirit and rebellion and would be no good for a slave driver. Its all about selective breeding.

Is it any wonder the world is such a mess when people like him are considered the father of many nations? Following the example of a braindead cowardly suckup. Religion really is the most evil affliction on mankind, without any exception. Abraham's example is responsible for the ruined and wasted lives, and death of many millions, and potentially billions more to come.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 05:39 AM
a reply to: the2ofusr1

I know what you mean! Many times I have held particular understandings about certain verses that later blossom into new insights that I hadn't previously considered. Although I adhere to no religion, it has been my experience that the Bible contains variant layers of meaning that directly reflect our knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and spiritual growth.

Regarding this thread, how do you think that putting Christ into the equation can resolve the questions and points addressed by the op?

edit on 12/17/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 05:42 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

There is absolutely no proof that an Abraham ever existed. In fact he's like most of Jewish ancient history - made up or bastardised from other cultures histories.

You simply have a gorup of people who were more greedy than any other and who wanted people to let them take over their countries and assets. They made up a god to use him as their qualifier to their takings and away went canaan into their hands - along with a somewhat unpleasant book that people, mostly who have never read it, think like sheep to adopt it as something holy. There is plenty in it that's neither holy nor acceptable behaviour, in fact cowardly behaviour and the story of abraham shows that trait at its origin.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 06:48 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

Presuppositions on our part are founded on our theology. If links of the chain in theology are broken, we have no way to properly see the story. Here are the flaws in our (not your) reasoning.

1) Yahweh is not God. He is running from God and trying to subvert the will of God.

---Start at the beginning. Elohim (Father) and Ruach Elohim (Mother) create a Son (Adam). This son is in the image of the parents, both male and female. When you read mankind and man in Genesis 1, you are actually reading Adam. When you read God and the Spirit of God, it is properly translated Elohim and Ruach Elohim. From this, your presuppositions must then change about Yahweh. In relation to the Father and Mother, we then know they created (bara) from nothing. All of their creation was perfect with no restrictions.

2) Yahweh did not create. In Genesis 2, different words are used in relation to Adam. Adam is formed. The garden is planted, then restricted. Adam's blood was shed (lamb shed / only son) to divide the image. Eve was the weaker vessel and easier to tempt. Satan / Snake was made by Yahweh as a cunning deceiver. Follow the intent of Yahweh and your presuppositions must again change.

3) In Genesis 9, Elohim (Father) told Yahweh this:

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

4000 years later, Jesus (Joshua with new clothes) hung on a cross. Read Zechariah 3. Yahweh told Satan to shut up, then clothed Joshua with a new robe (body) and crown (mind). Who shed the first blood? Yahweh. Who hung on a cross at the hands of his own people? Adam. Truly, Yahweh should have been the one.

4) Again, we return to our own presuppositions. I just told you a very different story than the one you think you know. Based on this, we can see every fallen character arising from the shedding of Adam's blood. Why? Yahweh divided the image, thereby causing the fall of man. By this, Yahweh is convicted of the crime. He then required the blood sacrifice of the wrong person. By this, mankind is free from Yahweh. The image can be restored.

All of what you know about Yahweh as Lord can be summed up in the knowledge of the Demiurge. A Demiurge cannot create, but must use previous materials. We are fallen because the Demiurge is fallen. Who goes to hell in the end? Who was it prepared for? Satan and his angels. Who made Satan? Who should have paid the blood cost?

Yahweh. If you get this, then you know why Yahweh creates two mirror nations, each with 12 tribes. He is planning to use them to destroy mankind. I have news for him. His plans for a final war will be stopped.

Genesis 9 says that Elohim chooses ALL colors of the Rainbow, not simply one nation. Here are the ultimate plans and desire of Yahweh:

Isaiah 24


24 Yahweh is going to turn the earth into a desolate wasteland.
He will mar the face of the earth and scatter the people living on it.
2 The same will happen to people and priests,
male slaves and masters,
female slaves and masters,
buyers and sellers,
lenders and borrowers,
debtors and creditors.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and stripped
because Yahweh has spoken.


21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

---What do we now say about Abraham (Israel) leaving Hagar out in the Desert? He is as fallen as all of us who have our image continually divided from the true God. Yahweh will pay for the blood in the end. Nothing will stop this and no amount of war or killing below can reverse the destiny he created for himself. He is the prince of the Earth. He will inherit this darkness when the fire comes.

Adam paid our cost. The promise is to the Rainbow (nations) and not the powers and principalities that work against the true Godhead of Father / Mother / Son.

Presuppositions must abide in the truth of what is stated in scripture. We have a myriad of ways to see this, but only one right way. I am not showing you the right way of course because I am also in the dark, just like anyone else. I am as flawed as anyone in this. The story does not provide the mechanism to unwind what was twisted in deception. We must do this on our own by knowing them by their fruit. Yahweh's fruit is corrupt. It may be that Yahweh is the higher mind of Adam and Satan the lower. In either case, we do not understand the details to know the true presuppositions. We do know that war is what a thief promotes. He then plays both sides.

Ignorance ensures we are held harmless. This is not our fight, but God's fight. He can only give. Thieves take. What is Yahweh by this view?

The one that digs the pit is the one that falls into the pit. When the stone (Earth) is rolled away, Adam will be gone (risen). What is left? Hell / fire. If no atonement is made, no salvation from the fallen creation. Yahweh should have paid the cost for all of us. He made Adam do it, then tried to trick us yet again.

The nations ARE deceived as stated in Revelation. Christ is the Son of God.

Luke 3

38 son of Enos, son of Seth,
son of Adam,
son of God.

edit on 17-12-2014 by AlephBet because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 06:56 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

These were given as types. Ishmael represents the child of the flesh, the natural man. This is also Esau (who was 'hated' God does to literally hate people, but this is an allegory), who's other name is Edom, which is the exact word Adam. It means red, ruddy, earth, blood... these are all speaking of the flesh. The older son was always the heir in those days. Esau vs. Jacob, Ishmael vs. Isaac, Cain vs. Able.

[Gal 4:22-31 KJV] 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Leah is the same story, the veiled bride hiding the truth. She represents the veil of flesh. Or the Carnal Mind

Carnal=Flesh it the same word which is Sarx in Greek
[Rom 8:7 KJV] 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The law of God is not the Law of Moses the Servant but the Law of the Spirit

2 Cor 2: But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their mind

A selection of Flesh vs. Spirit
[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[Jhn 6:63 KJV] 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
[Rom 8:5 KJV] 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[Gal 3:3 KJV] 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Here is the contrast between:

the natural=Adam/Edom/Esau/Ishmael/Hagar/Literal Jerusalem/Law of Moses

the Spiritual=Christ/Israel/Jacob/Isaac/Sarah/Heavenly Jerusalem/Law of Spirit-Christ

[1Co 15:21-22, 42-53 KJV] 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ... 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

The kingdom of this world vs the kingdom of heaven

[Rom 8:7 KJV] 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 07:53 AM
Ok ,I will try my best to more directly address op and also show some simple misunderstanding in present day that if understood better would eliminate certain tensions . God made a promise to Abraham and his wife Sarah that through his seed ( this seed and promise goes back to the garden ) and has everything to do with the Christ . We notice that in scripture that ,like you said there seem to be different layers that can be understood one way when in actuality God throws a curve into the narrative that only later on becomes more evident. The reason for this was to not give Satan the ability to see how God was going to overturn the curse .

Abraham knew some things but God was going to clear up for him some of what he thought he knew and with the birth of Isaac at a time when both of them were too old in human terms to have had much to do with it .I am surprised that they would have been still having sex at that age and especially after having the posterity in Ishmael .Or so they thought at the time .

Isaac was Abraham and Sahara's first son .A distinction that can not be ignored in order for the story of the Christ to be better understood . A little liven and the whole lump gets changed . Fast forward to today for a moment and we can see that there is tensions between the two seeds over what we call the temple mount .I recently came across the work of Bob Cornuke If what he has shown to be true is true, then how significant would be the changes of the two groups be ? Every time I start to imagine it it blows my mind personally .

If scripture is true and all blessings come down from God then Ishmael separation from Abraham was for a specific reason .Notice that Israel as recorded in scripture went through lots of things that could be considered as cruel , but God had a plan and needed them to be obedient to him and when they were not he used the surrounding powers to show them he was serious .The book of Daniel records why God had taken them into captivity .(failing to keep His Sabbaths)

You said " Ishmael, first-born son of Abraham, has been marginalized and bastardized by Judaism and Christendom. A major reasoning is that Ishmael was born "out of wedlock" to Sarah's slave; Hagar. " Some have some do, but was it not God's plan to separate for His own purpose and make a distinct people to reveal His Christ ?

If man uses standard reasoning we will miss Gods reasoning which is much higher then mans .When we try and understand even the twelve tribes we can run into problems if not careful .Joseph and his story is another layer that can answer some of the misunderstandings we have squaring the differences recorded in the tribal names .We also not that God does not always use standard genealogy orders but sometimes uses order of importance . ( the elder shall serve the younger , he who is first will be last and other such things to factor into the narrative .

The story of Isaac and his sacrifice was to show that God would provide His own Lamb of God who would also be a human .Satan understood this principal in that he incorporated human sacrifice with Moloch . One was Gods doing while the other was a false copy of what God was going to do . Send His only Son ,The Lamb of God whom John identified . The false prophet will claim the Anti-Christ is the one and many will follow after him . Part of the layers in the story ,don't you think ?

The blessing that numbers as the sands of the seas or the stars of heaven would be those that accept by faith the sacrifice God was going to provide . They looked forward to the sacrifice and we look back at that sacrifice that God provided .....peace a reply to: Sahabi

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 07:58 AM
Very well put . a reply to: zardust

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 08:20 AM

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Hey there DeathSlayer. Thanks for the encouraging words

"Abraham's first born was not with his wife."

According to Genesis 16:3, Hagar was indeed Abraham's wife:

According to this verse, isn't Hagar a legitimate wife of Abraham?

Yes. There really isn't any illegitimacy as far as son standing.

The answer to the question is found in Sarah. Here son was to carry the birthright. Conflict developed when Ishmaels mom failed or refused to understand this. These conditions were given to Sarah even before Ishmael was born. Ishmaels mom was going for the eldest son standing but this wasn't recognized as the offical birthright recipient.

There is another example of this found with Judah. God wanted his line to pass through his son and Bathshua but his son had issues with this. You can read that story yourself.

Anyway I can believe the OP even posed the question without a bit more understanding of the issue.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 08:50 AM

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Sahabi

Leah is the same story, the veiled bride hiding the truth. She represents the veil of flesh. Or the Carnal Mind

You really need to reconsider Leah here. She and her sister represent the early splitting of the nation israle between the birthright and the scepter. The birthright fell to Rachel her sisters son Joseph and the scepter to Leah son Judah. It all really clear. She does not represent the same thing as Hagar. These women were Rebecca's nieces.

Her son Ruben did have legal standing to the birthright unlike Ishmael. And even though Ruben lost the birthright it was not due to his mothers standing.

Anyway two sisters.....Aholah and Aholibah groundwork laid early. Significance demonstrated at feast of Canaan and woman at the well.....the two wives.

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